Rememberance

[Mick Mac]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> Sometimes, true. Can't think of many though.

>

Defensive wars against mad oppressors are necessary. Hopefully WWII will prove to be the last time we have to defend ourselves to that level.

Offensive wars, where the reasons for going to war are usually less clear may make it even harder for families to reconcile themselves with the loss of a family member where the war has no direct defensive purpose, but instead is political or economically strategic.

The world is generally becoming more peaceful over time, which is a good thing, but the dominant countries will crush any attempt to destablise the status quo.

Hence we will always have war, and rememberance. Calls for peace will make governments think carefully about how they justify a war (liberation/smoking gun) but it won't stop them doing it.

[Brendan]

Why, when remembering the demise of people killed in war, does the assumption that violence and death are things that we as a society should do our damdest to avoid have to go unsaid?

It wasn?t where/when I was growing up and would go to the yearly veteran?s service with my uncles and their friends who all fought in WW2. The priest would always give some of message peace. In fact there was a bloody great hanging with a white dove on it that they used to bring out every year and hang amongst the regimental banners.

[Mick Mac]

Brendan Wrote:

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> Why, when remembering the demise of people killed

> in war, does the assumption that violence and

> death are things that we as a society should do

> our damdest to avoid have to go unsaid?

Internally the UK strives for a peaceful society - externally we present ourselves as strong in order to prevent another country from taking an opportunity that results in the UK not being able to determine how to run its own society.

A small group of people are asked to engage in death and violence on our behalf, being the armed forces. I'd prefer they were only used in defensive wars, but there you go.

[Keef]

When I look at rememberance day, it just makes me think of how tragic was is, I think it's a great advert for peace.

[Brendan]

Let?s assume I?m not 5 years old and I know about armies and stuff and why we have them.

My point is that it seems at the moment that mention of peace around Remembrance Day is somehow out of place or political and is even sometimes met with direct hostility. As if one is dishonouring someone or something.

Why the demonisation of the concept? To what end? The people the day honours are as much my loved ones and ancestors as they are anyone else?s. I?m not dishonouring them be saying that war in general is a bad idea.

[Mick Mac]

Brendan Wrote:

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> Let?s assume I?m not 5 years old and I know about

> armies and stuff and why we have them.

>

> My point is that it seems at the moment that

> mention of peace around Remembrance Day is somehow

> out of place or political and is even sometimes

> met with direct hostility. As if one is

> dishonouring someone or something.

To put it another way Brendan - The armed forces are not naive enough to believe that peace works in keeping the world a happier place for most of the worlds population.

The armed forces are people primed for conflict - don't confuse their day with calls for peace when they have lost comrades in battle fighting for the greater good.

[Brendan]

But it?s not their day is it. A soldier is a son, friend, father and brother first.

If not we appear to be occupied.

[Mick Mac]

Well - ok, its the day to honour the armed forces and their families.

[mockney piers]

I'M afraid that's nonsense MM. The UK has spent 30 odd years ceding the rights to determine absolutley our own future to the very rivals we spent a good thousand years fighting in order to protect those rights.

Those old rivals are doing the same and we are all undoubtedly better off and safer for it.

Likewise the idea of defence can be a very elastic one and open to interpretation. Afghanistan was sold (and stil is to a large extent) as a defensive war for NATO security in the light of an attack on one of us.

Obviously this looks less and less viaible and more and more like occupation as time wears on.

The taking of Jersualem and the many horrors of the crusades were equally sold as the defence of Christendom, an interpretation that doesn't bear the slightest scrutiny.

Vietnam, the defence of freedom, etc etc.

War remains nothing but an absolute failure of imagination and humanity, and as you say, long gone are the days of Asian hordes sweeping from the steppes with pillage on mind and hopefully the utter destruction of world war two has invalidated forever conquest and domination as a means of national policy.

I'd like to think empire is dead, but history and current events do no bear that out either.

So war remaims a cynical and disgusting political tool of the power elites who pay lip service to ideas of duty and sacrifice.

I think Brendan has a point that a somber rememberance of the enourmous sacrifices of our soldiers, whether citizen or professional over the genrations, should not preclude a very necessary reminder that the search for peace is the noblest goal of all.

[mockney piers]

Erthe nonsense refers to an earlier statement. The ones above are spot on.

Apologies for the confusion.

[Mick Mac]

mockney piers Wrote:

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>

> I think Brendan has a point that a somber

> rememberance of the enourmous sacrifices of our

> soldiers, whether citizen or professional over the

> genrations, should not preclude a very necessary

> reminder that the search for peace is the noblest

> goal of all.

Absolutley MP - but we don't think that the whole of the rest of the world has the same peaceful objective - hence we need strong armed forces.

Armed forces are not taught to think like peaceful people, therefore it would be patronising and contradictory to bring peaceful wishes into the remembrance services.

Otherwise can you explain why they don't have a peace message?

[Brendan]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> Absolutley MP - but we don't think that the whole

> of the rest of the world has the same peaceful

> objective - hence we need strong armed forces.

That is very much a matter of opinion and one that on some levels I don?t necessarily disagree with. But it doesn?t really have much to do with the marking of the end of the WW1 by a day on which we (that?s all of society) remember the people killed in wars especially those 2 massive testaments of human tragedy that were WW1 and WW2.

[Brendan]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> Otherwise can you explain why they don't have a

> peace message?

That's the question I'm still asking.

Perhaps some soldiers will be out of a job. But that?s not really going to happen now is it. And if it does it would be a good thing. Surely?

Why is the mention of peace somehow seen as tantamount to treason?

[Mick Mac]

Brendan Wrote:

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>

> > Otherwise can you explain why they don't have a

> > peace message?

>

>

> That's the question I'm still asking.

>

I've given you my answer Brendan - in short:

Armed forces are not taught to think like peaceful people, therefore it would be patronising and contradictory to bring peaceful wishes into the remembrance services.

I have not seen that you have had any other answers from anyone else - except people agreeing with you that a peace message would be good. But noone else explaining the obvious absence of a peace message.

[daizie]

Lol Brendan i spotted your post before you edited , implying that Rememberance day has Nationalisitic undertones . Wondered how long it would take you to get round to it again , Lol .

[mockney piers]

Actually I happen to think, like PGC that's very much implicit in the whole ethos of remebrance Sunday, but memories are short, the Ww1 generation isnow completely gone and the numbers of Ww2 veterans are seriously thinning, and judging by this government's willingness to go to war I don't think a bit more expliciteness (a word?) can do any harm.

[Brendan]

Yes daizie it was unnecessarily argumentative and irrelevant to the discussion.

I am so glad it made you, Lol.

[Santerme]

For most people, war is viewed through the medium of a television screen or a reporters account of fighting in some distant parts of the world.

Those of us brought up during peacetime, all wars seem far removed from our daily lives.

Often we take for granted our values and institutions, our freedom to participate in cultural and political events, and our right to live under a government of our choice.

Those Old Contemptibles of 1914 or the BEF of 1939 went off to war in the belief that the values and beliefs enjoyed by the British were being threatened.

Those who experienced the blood and carnage of battle believed that their efforts had made the world a safer place.

For those who lived through these wars, remembering means thinking of brothers in arms.

It evokes memories of men and women who never returned home.

Those born after the wars might picture the youthful soldiers who eagerly joined up from schools, businesses and farms across the country, only to meet death while fighting against the enemy.

They may imagine the anguish of a man leaving a new wife, a young family, an elderly mother.

The important thing for all of us to remember is that they fought to preserve a way of life, values, and the freedom we enjoy today and often take for granted.

Remembrance is the silence to honour their sacrifice and memory.

What do we remember, in the main, very ordinary men asked to perform extraordinary deeds.

Not everyone is awarded a medal, most deeds of heroism go overlooked, the passing of two minutes in silent contemplation honours these uncelebrated heroes.

One day every year, we pay special homage to those who died in service to their country.

We remember these brave men and women for their courage and their devotion to ideals.

We wear poppies, attend ceremonies, and visit memorials.

For one brief moment of our life, we remember why we must work for peace every day of the year.

My brother was on parade in Whitehall last Sunday, he is a 22 year veteran of the Royal Marines and returned in June from 14 months in AFG, 6 months on tour and a voluntary extension to mentor ANA soldiers.

He was humbled by the warmth of those who attended the ceremony and he stood in awe of those on the march past who had endured so much.

We have each seen the supreme cruelty man can perpetrate on their fellow man,in Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, Sierra Leone and Afghanistan.

But, we have both been touched by the enduring spirit of humanity we have witnessed in places where you would not believe it could possibly exist.

The onus is on all of us to carry the message, to ensure our children and future generations realise that freedom is not free and that the price has been paid by those strangers who gave their all so that we have the right to choose, the right to speak, and perhaps even the right to forget.

War is obscene, it should be resisted at all costs as a solution to political failings.

The vast majority of soldiers I have ever served with feel the same.

[tog_in_sox]

Santerme, your sombre, measured, heartfelt words are very well said and I thank you for standing up more than perhaps I ever could.

Brendan, you're obviously the open wound of grief here on this thread but perhaps your feelings would be better directed at your local MP and registered at the next election rather than preaching to a choir who perhaps are a little more humbled by the occasion and will likely register their similar opinion when they vote. If you truly wanted to honour the sacrifice and champion peace then perhaps your passion could be harnessed in the establishment of an alternative political party that would do more than pay lip service to those willing to make the ultimate sacrifice.

I have to say that in the past week I have been very disappointed to see the lack of poppies worn in public. For every poppied lapel I saw dozens going unaddorned.

It's one thing to ignore the spotty, bedraggled youth campaigner/canvasser in the street but to walk by a medalled or bereted veteran of older years manning a tin or bucket for your pennies is contemptible.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

I think that's somewhat unfair to Brendan, t_in_sox. I may not always agree with him, but he's a very genuine chap and something heartfelt should not be derided.

(Unless it's on the cricket thread where it's mandatory.)

[tog_in_sox]

I was being surprisingly sincere PG. Not at all deriding but hey that's the dodgy territory of words.

Brendan, no ill intent meant mate.

[brum]

Thanks Santerme for reminding us so eloquently of the real reasons why we have to remember them.

Lest we forget. That is the message of peace from the past to us and to future generations, for those who lived through it have seen the alternative.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Sorry, t_in_sox - it was way past my bedtime!

[Brendan]

tog_in_sox has a point. The question does cut close to the bone for me because for one Remembrance Day always held an important place in my upbringing but its observance was a lot less military focussed than what I see around me and far more focused on the society which the soldiers were a part of not mutually exclusive to. The prescriptive nature of it is also difficult, it seems that it is incumbent upon everyone to mark the day or they may as well be spitting on veteran?s graves but they have to do it in the prescribed way and give to the prescribed charity. That?s hardly the spirit of an international day of observance. I also don?t mind one bit donating money to the Legion but I object strongly to being made to feel as if I have to.

Secondly I spent 6 years of my childhood not knowing whether my 2 brothers (who are 19 and 16 years older than me) were going to come home from their tours in Angola alive. I was also all set to join the army myself when I was 18, I even considered coming over here and serving in the British army, until I ended up in 2 situations where I had to use a gun to defend myself and got to thinking very seriously if I would be prepared to do that at the behest of some government?s political ends.

So I do get quite emotive about the subject because we really, really do have to mark the tragedy of war and especially those great wars of the last century but this world is so sick with war and violence that I can?t see how any message can in all conscience not have an ultimate pacifist end.

[Santerme]

Brendan

Remembrance Day at the Cenotaph is the State paying homage to those who fell in service of the Nation.

It is also fellow service personnel recalling those less fortunate than ourselves in full public glare, because we have a kinship with them.

How individuals decide to pay their respects is a matter of personal choice, whether it is to buy a poppy or make a donation to the Cheshire Foundation, or even not to agree to contribute at all.

All that really matters is, if you choose to remember, that the right to make that choice was hard bought.

The armed forces are a family, but we are part of a greater family which is society in general.

We live in garrison towns and interact with the public almost everyday when at home base.

Our children attend local schools and we shop in the same supermarkets.

We are not a breed apart, we are you.