Primary School

[elln]

Hi folks,

my daughter will start the reception in September 2016. We are currently in US and moving back soon so I made a research through the council website and Ofsted, however, your general opinion on the following schools would be very much appreciated:

1) Goose Green Primary School

2) Heber School

3) Bessemer Grange Primary School

4) Goodrich Primary School

this is more or less our catchment area..

thanks!

Elena

[landsberger]

I would say it's impossible for you to know what's right for your child without visiting the schools concerned (and we don't know what your daughter is like).

[redjam]

They're all good, popular, local schools. The problem with asking on a forum is that most people will only have experience of one school so it's difficult to give an overview of how they are in relation to others (and if you ask ten different people about their own child's school, you'll get ten different answers). I'm afraid, as landsberger says, you really need to visit them if you want to get more of a feel for what they are like individually, though I realise that's not very helpful to you if you're on the other side of the Atlantic! School websites can be a useful source of information, giving details of forthcoming trips and activities etc - perhaps have a browse on there?

The other thing you may or may not know is that the catchment areas for some of these schools are very tiny (and fluctuate each year) so you're unlikely to be in the catchment for all four of them. There may not be quite as much 'choice' as you think.

But do be reassured that these are all good schools with their own passionate supporters, so I don't think you'd go far wrong with any of them.

[EDmummy]

Agree with Redjam above. Maybe others have experience but I'm not sure if you can apply in absentia, unless you have an address already in the area.

[tomskip]

Do you have a place to move to yet elln? I only ask because I am sure there are no addresses in East Dulwich which would qualify for a catchment place at all of those schools.

[Saffron]

I think school websites can give a wealth of information about the character of the school. Things I would look out for would be how up to date the website is, and what information is available on different aspects of the school.

Is there information about staff, such as what area they specialise in? Are staff pictures on the website, so parents can easily identify them? Are the governors and their areas of expertise on the website? Does the website have up to date copies of the school newsletter and permission slips etc available?

Can the website take payments?

Does the website list a dress code? Does it seem about right to you, or too conservative, too relaxed?

Is the school sympathetic to working parents (if needed)? Are there lots of different afterschool activities to choose from? Is there a breakfast club if needed?

Is there a parent forum? How does the school get feedback from parents and offer them answers? Is there a PTA? Is the 'PTA' a fundraising group only, or do they also provide a forum between the school and parents?

What type of school trips does the website list? How far in advance does their school calendar go? Can you get dates in your diary 6 months in advance? A year in advance?

If your child rides a scooter or bicycle, is there a place to leave it at the school during the day? What outdoor facilities does the school have? How much free play do children have?

What are school lunches like? Are they catered, or does the school have a kitchen?

So, I agree, that going to see the school can help... BUT, you can get a lot of information by really combing the websites! xx

[landsberger]

Saffron Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think school websites can give a wealth of

> information about the character of the school.

> Things I would look out for would be how up to

> date the website is, and what information is

> available on different aspects of the school.

You could argue this both ways. A school who don't update their website could be busy doing other things. I know some great schools with awful websites and some awful schools with great websites. You need to corral a wide variety of information before you make your choice. Reading the Ofsted reports is a start and any stories in the media about the school.

> Is there information about staff, such as what

> area they specialise in? Are staff pictures on

> the website, so parents can easily identify them?

There's no set templates and if the school is a primary school, the staff are unlikely to have a particular subject specialism - your child will have the same teacher for most lessons. Most school websites will list the staff but as staff are recruited and resign all the time, the turnover is likely to be such that the website may well be out of date. Photos are not usually provided - why would they ? What can one tell by a staff member's appearance ?

> Are the governors and their areas of expertise on

> the website?

Usually a list of governors is provided - if not on the website, then usually in the prospectus - specialisms are likely to be whether they have specific responsibilities rather than what their skills are.

> Does the website have up to date

> copies of the school newsletter and permission

> slips etc available?

Maybe. Maybe not. See above for "up to date"ness.

> Can the website take payments?

See above - many schools have "parent pay", but it's not compulsory for schools to offer this service.

> Does the website list a dress code? Does it seem

> about right to you, or too conservative, too

> relaxed?

if there is a uniform for the school (and 95% of UK primaries do have a uniform) it will show it either in the prospectus or on the website.

> Is the school sympathetic to working parents (if

> needed)? Are there lots of different afterschool

> activities to choose from? Is there a breakfast

> club if needed?

See above

> Is there a parent forum? How does the school get

> feedback from parents and offer them answers? Is

> there a PTA? Is the 'PTA' a fundraising group

> only, or do they also provide a forum between the

> school and parents?

See above

> What type of school trips does the website list?

> How far in advance does their school calendar go?

> Can you get dates in your diary 6 months in

> advance? A year in advance?

There's no requirement to list school trips - there's no requirement to offer school trips at all. It's down to the school.

[Saffron]

landsberger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Saffron Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I think school websites can give a wealth of

> > information about the character of the school.

> > Things I would look out for would be how up to

> > date the website is, and what information is

> > available on different aspects of the school.

>

> You could argue this both ways. A school who don't

> update their website could be busy doing other

> things. I know some great schools with awful

> websites and some awful schools with great

> websites.

Disagree. For me personally, as a working parent, an up-to-date website is essential.

And that includes the typical things I listed.

> You need to corral a wide variety of

> information before you make your choice. Reading

> the Ofsted reports is a start and any stories in

> the media about the school.

Ofsted reports only fit where they touch, and are subject to manipulation on both fronts. Useful? Yes. But take with a proverbial pinch of salt.

>

> > Is there information about staff, such as what

> > area they specialise in? Are staff pictures on

> > the website, so parents can easily identify

> them?

>

> There's no set templates and if the school is a

> primary school, the staff are unlikely to have a

> particular subject specialism - your child will

> have the same teacher for most lessons. Most

> school websites will list the staff but as staff

> are recruited and resign all the time, the

> turnover is likely to be such that the website may

> well be out of date. Photos are not usually

> provided - why would they ? What can one tell by a

> staff member's appearance ?

>

Wrong! MANY primary school website ARE providing staff and governor photos. Parents who aren't frequently able to do the drop off and pick can have a difficult time getting to know staff. Having photos available helps parents to recognise staff and can support community building. Also just because there is no template is irrelevant. You can build an excellent informative website by common sense and a little research. Also, MANY staff have areas in which they specialise or areas of special interest, such as reading, maths, or music.

> > Are the governors and their areas of expertise

> on

> > the website?

>

> Usually a list of governors is provided - if not

> on the website, then usually in the prospectus -

> specialisms are likely to be whether they have

> specific responsibilities rather than what their

> skills are.

>

Also not true. Governors who are co-opted from outside the school may have been taken on-board because they have skills that can benefit the school, such as financial knowledge. Their responsibilities in this case should reflect their skills base.

> > Does the website have up to date

> > copies of the school newsletter and permission

> > slips etc available?

>

> Maybe. Maybe not. See above for "up to date"ness.

>

Again, see my comment on being a working parent. Sometimes letters get lost between home, club, and school. I can easily print a new one, if it's available on the website. So, for me this is an essential part of the character of the school which would be useful.

> > Can the website take payments?

>

> See above - many schools have "parent pay", but

> it's not compulsory for schools to offer this

> service.

>

Never suggested it is compulsory, but again see my comments on facilitating working parents (and busy non-working parents as well).

> > Does the website list a dress code? Does it

> seem

> > about right to you, or too conservative, too

> > relaxed?

>

> if there is a uniform for the school (and 95% of

> UK primaries do have a uniform) it will show it

> either in the prospectus or on the website.

>

> > Is the school sympathetic to working parents

> (if

> > needed)? Are there lots of different

> afterschool

> > activities to choose from? Is there a

> breakfast

> > club if needed?

>

> See above

Indeed.

>

> > Is there a parent forum? How does the school

> get

> > feedback from parents and offer them answers?

> Is

> > there a PTA? Is the 'PTA' a fundraising group

> > only, or do they also provide a forum between

> the

> > school and parents?

>

> See above

Yawn...

>

> > What type of school trips does the website list?

>

> > How far in advance does their school calendar

> go?

> > Can you get dates in your diary 6 months in

> > advance? A year in advance?

>

> There's no requirement to list school trips -

> there's no requirement to offer school trips at

> all. It's down to the school.

There's no requirement to do any of that. I never suggested that there was. However, THIS IS the 21st century. Many schools are increasingly using websites, email, and texts to communicate with busy parents. Therefore, where websites are available, they can give a wealth of information on the school's character.

[LondonMix]

I think the approach a school takes to the points Saffron has raised shows their general approach at communication with parents and how well they try to facilitate information sharing and community building for working parents. For many, those are details that are important when choosing a school and so I think Saffrons original post was very helpful.

OP, do you know where you will be living or are you trying to choose where you?ll live based on the school you ultimately get into?

All the schools you?ve listed are good so I wouldn't stress out about it.

If you want the most POTENTIAL choice before you can actually visit, your best bet is to live on the triangle of roads between Pellatt and Thompson bordered by Crystal Palace and Landcroft Rd. From there, depending on the exact road you have a reasonable shot at Goodrich, Heber, Dulwich Hamlet, Harris East Dulwich Primary and Bessemer Grange at a push. Bessemer is becoming increasingly popular though so that might no longer be realistic from this section of ED anymore.

Good luck!

Edited to add Harris East Dulwich whose new school building is under construction nearby and might be an option as well.

[landsberger]

The Telegraph (and presumably other papers) have published 2015 primary results today.

[yeknomyeknom]

Wow, Fairlawn is a real standout.

[LondonMix]

Fairlawn is one of the best schools in the country so yes it does!

All the local schools have done well though. Heber, Dog Kennel Hill, Goodrich, Bessemer, Dulwich Hamlet and others performed above both the national average and the average for the LA.

Bessemer Grange and Goodrich also had very high value add scores (higher than Fairlawn), suggesting pupils are making more than expected progress based on their starting ability!

[ktrd80]

My son has started at the new school near Bellenden Road. The Belham. I have to say, I am very impressed by the school. The children are always out and about learning about the local area. Various school trips. Really good outside play activities, with lots of time in the park and every Wednesday making some sort of contraption with cardboard boxes.

My son was not short of confidence however his math and english have really come on a treat and finally I only have good things to say about the parents being really friendly and inclusive to all.

[dhjs]

Thank you ktrd80.

We don't know which parent you are - there are quite a few boys - but we appreciate your comments. We know the children are happy, thriving and enjoying the "glittering curriculum". We look forward to sharing the Wriggly Nativity with you all on Monday afternoon.

[claire17]

What's going on at goose green? Their results are terrible and well below the floor level (minimum level set by Government).

I bet OFSTED will be knocking ASAP but have they had a tough year?

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Didn't their Head who turned the school around leave ? If so maybe this is why ?

laire17 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What's going on at goose green? Their results are

> terrible and well below the floor level (minimum

> level set by Government).

> I bet OFSTED will be knocking ASAP but have they

> had a tough year?

[MarkT]

If you have concerns about Goose Green Primary School results, please read the letter from the Chair of Governors:

https://goosegreenprimaryschool.org/files/school-information/pupil-performance/Letter%20RE%20Year%206%20SATs%20results.pdf

MarkT

[Sunglasses]

That letter doesn't really explain what went wrong for that year 6 group with the poor results. Feel sorry for the parents.

[LondonMix]

Goose Green's value add score is 97.8 which indicates that children made less progress than average compared to pupils with a similar starting point at KS1. Essentially, those scores don't reflect a low performing intake but below average teaching...

A 97.8 value add score puts the school in the bottom 5% of schools nationally regarding pupil progress between KS1 and KS2. This, more than the headline score, is what is most concerning (to me).

http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/archive/primary_04/p3.shtml

[LondonMix]

On a more positive note:

Bessemer Granges value add score of 102.7

Goodrich value add score of 102.5

Both schools are in the top 5% nationally as concerns the progress pupils are making between KS1 and KS2!

[southeastlondonmum]

Yes -as London Mix says- value added is critical here as it takes in to account the starting point of the child. Very few schools in London now fall below the floor standards and London's results are some of the best in country. In Southwark the borough average was 80%, GG was 25% below this.

There is a huge irony that there supposed to be a national support school which supports other schools despite results being just so-so in recent years. They will be needing a lot of support to pull it round. Ofsted will make a judgement whether they believe the new leadership can turn it around so just requires improvement or special measures when the council will intervene. Either way, they will get a lot of support which it looks like it needs.

Lyndhurst also didn't do well- though not quite as badly.

[yeknomyeknom]

What is it about Fairlawn do you think? It doesn't look too spectacular from the street with its wonky playground and run down play area. Clearly it is doing a fantastic job. What sets it apart from the rest?

[southeastlondonmum]

I don't know Fairlawn but I do know what makes a fantastic school. Very strong focussed leadership, excellent class room practice and using data effectively to ensure that children continue to get work that stretches them or can be additionally supported so they make good progress. To be honest, nice buildings, playgrounds, fetes etc make no difference at all.

The problem is - for the average parent- this is really difficult to assess. When I made my choice I was delighted to find out that my school plans lessons weekly across a number of schools (so all sixteen Year 1 teachers do this together). A small, technical point but proven by their results a great way to ensure consistently good practice across classrooms.

[Norfolkvillas]

Isn't the success of Fairlawn down to the previous head who was a "super head" ( who then went to Harris to design their primary blueprint, then went to Ofsted)? I met him, albeit very briefly, and can believe all the good things people say about him. Google "Sir Robin Bosher" - there's plenty online about him.

[LondonMix]

I agree with SoutheastLondonmum 100$%.

It really comes down to very high quality teaching that focuses and tracks the individual progress of pupils and assigns different work depending on progress made, continually stretching pupils in every subject. High achievers, disadvantaged pupils, pupils with SEN and disabilities all thrive there and it appears to be down to the individualized approach. The pastoral care is also meant to be excellent which contributes to terrific behavior and lots of pupil enthusiasm which I'm sure also contributes to the academic success achieved.