Cameron and Europe

[silverfox]

According to Newsnight last night nobody's really sure what can be done about Greece as there are no precedents and the worry is if they bail her out this opens the floodgates to more bailouts and creates the seeds of Euro disintegration. Meanwhile the short-sellers are circling like vultures.

The member states have been so busy scrambling over each other to sign away their sovereign rights and don the Euro straight-jacket there was no provision made for bail-outs.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems the ECB is impotent to act on this. So the onus now falls on member states to altruistically guarantee loans, and this includes Britain who is outside the Euro.

Thankfully Germany and Belgium look as if they are going to assume this burden. As for Greece, as evidenced by the strikes across the country today, there's only so much pain people will put up with in the name of political experiments.

[SeanMacGabhann]

You would have to convince me that Greece, pre-membership, was some idyll where the economy was tickety-boo and the workers weren't striking regularly before you can make a genuine link

No question the whole process is in trouble, but that shouldn't mean it's not a struggle worth having. When I see the United States revert back to their own currencies and non-integration, then I'll be convinced that this isn't a good thing

[silverfox]

Well, you're right about Greece pre-accession.

This won't be the last test the Eurozone has to face and it will adapt and reshape its structures. Perhaps moving closer to an American federal model has merit. The ECB has been caught wanting and perhaps some form of a federal reserve might be better. Also, perhaps the presidency should become the supreme executive with real clout so states of emergency could be declared with emergency aid funds becoming available.

[????]

The United States has a simple and fantastic written constitution (although as with all things even its simple interpreatation can be cause poroblems) I've read it as have many people because it's so simple and short. The people of the US are almost idealistically committed to it. I doubt there's anyone in the world whose read the European coinstuitution...it's a bueracratic nightmare of the worst sort and is totally worthless as 'WE the people' of europe have demoonsrated when we've been allowed to vote on it. It's clutching at straws the glib comparison between the US and the EU's constitution, the latters constitution should start "We the bureacrats" as it's nothing to do with the people..at all. It's an anti-democratic mess dreanmt up by political elites who think they know better than us the mere electorate.

[SeanMacGabhann]

My comparison is not with the relative constitutions (solid point tho that is) but in the protracted, long and very very difficult creation of the United States. They did not read the simple declaration and go "ooh nice one" - most states fought it every step of the way, with "the man in Washington" being the "political elites" you mention here

If the electorate has a better idea on how to prevent another pan-European war AND face the 21st century, I'd like to hear it

[Brendan]

Well that?s easy. Just negate the threat of the British ruling classes feeling threatened by growing industrial and financial power in Europe and throwing their disposable recourse of manpower at it and to hell with the cost to the common man. Then, just to be sure, arse fucking Germany back into the stone age for their own personal gain, creating the perfect environment for a power-hungry, extremist regime to rise and kick the whole thing off again.

(In summary)

So to answer your question the best thing Europe could do it avoid another War is intelligently manage the threat from Britain. This may have to involve coercing them into the fold.

[mockney piers]

Intersting comparison with the united states.

As not so many people know that the first attempt was the confedaration of states which much more closely reflects our European union, with the states having much stronger sovereign power; it was politically weak and economically a disaster.

The wonderful constitution and success of the united states was their second attempt at designing a country.

I'm not saying we should though I am very much a pro-european (hardly surprising as a spic-brit-bosch) but in it's current guide I'm in favour of relaxing central power as it's largely unanswerable to the electorate and hideously wasteful and inefficient. A centralised federal version of the curret institutions would be a disaster.

Maybe a completely redesigned attempt a la the US might work, did them no harm, and half a million well educated and dynamic people working together rather than against each other (or at least predominantly for their divided and local interests) would be an economic and political powerhouse indeed. Somethin we might need to consider in a world that'll have five or six superpowers within a century, struggling over dwindling resources. Britain will achieve nothing alone at any rate.

Academic as the federalists have had their attempt to give us a constitution scuppered.

[silverfox]

Anatole Kaletsky in today's Times:

"... For it is now clearer than ever that the single currency will survive this test. And if the conditions that it faces in the Club Med countries continue to deteriorate, the euro?s near-death experience will, if anything, accelerate the march towards a fully federalist United States of Europe..."

Do you tink he reads the forum for is inspiration?

[Huguenot]

I think it's a poor argument that conflates the inefficiency of the current european political structures with evidence that integration doesn't work. It's often a lazy man's thin veil for jingoism.

Little Englanders really need to suck it up and admit that in a modern world the UK is quite simply dead in the water without the strength conferred by a united Europe. That means united financial clout, united defence and foreign policy and united legislation.

There will be rich and poor areas, and poor areas will need to be subsidised by richers ones. This isn't some outrageous European socialist theft. We do it in the UK at the moment. London essentially subsidises the whole of the rest of the UK. We do it because we recognise that there's no benefit in having millions of disenfranchised desperate people living next door.

So self-interest is what it's all about. The UK cannot sustain itself without resources the rest of the world controls, it's a shame that petty jingoism means that we'll be approaching the negotiating table like some trembling Oliver Twist.

[silverfox]

Your use of the word jingoism is apt Huguenot, but perhaps not for the reason you intended. You talk of unity bringing economic security.

The reason 'The UK cannot sustain itself without resources the rest of the world controls...' is because while we've been pussy-footing around the high table of the EU, China, Brazil and the emerging superpowers have been buying up the resources of Africa to secure their future energy needs in a far thinking bit of old fashioned colonialism - the like of which the 19th century would be proud of.

Despite your misunderstanding of my views on India and China, I am a great admirer of these countries and the go-get-it entreprenurial spirit of their people.

[SeanMacGabhann]

so, when you are done telling us where we are going wrong, what would your solution be silverfox?

[Huguenot]

The UK can't sustain itself without the resources of the rest of the world beacuse it doesn't have enough at home. It's a fact, not a metaphor.

It is perfectly reasonable for other countries to act in their own best interests, whether China, Brazil or anywhere else.

If we're struggling to buy the resources of Africa it's because we don't have sufficient economic or military influence, not because foreigners are horrid. An influential status can only be achieved by combining the resources and negotiating power of the European bloc.

If you're proposing to resolve the situation by acting like a colonial superpower instead of trying to generate European consensus, then the nicest way I could describe it is hopeless delusions of grandeur. Are you old enough to remember Suez?

The prejudices and small-mindedness of anti-Europeans are demonstrably against the best interests of the UK.

[silverfox]

Referendum.

Let the British people decide that we want in or out.

I offered people the chance to provide me with answers to some questions above that would show I was wrong. I'm quite open minded - I'll change my opinion if strong arguments show I'm being naive. So let me ask the same questions that nobody took up the challenge, perhaps becuase nobody knows or because the benefits are so obvious they didn't deem it worth their while.

What are the benefits for Britain?

While it is easy to see how Ireland has benefitted from membership with the country transformed over the past 20 years it's not as obvious to me how Britain has benefitted. Can any economists, financiers or business gurus on the forum provide a ball-park figure that says Britain has benefitted to the tune of ?xx trillion by joining, or would be ?xx worse off if it hadn't joined or even that we haven't benefitted yet but will do in the future.

[SeanMacGabhann]

a referendum will only provide an answer to the question do you want in or out

It won't answer the question about what will make britain a better country

If Ireland has been transformed in the last 20 years (and you may notice it has some pretty large problems of it's own at the moment) it is because it has been on every practical level pro-european.

Britain has managed to alienate pretty much every senior European partner in the same period - precisely because of the petty attitudes you display

So if life comes down to a "we are better/worse off by x trillion" statement (and it really doesnt) then that might have rather a lot to do with it

[silverfox]

So you admit there are no economic/financial benefits to Britain being part of Europe - it's just a 'nice' bureaucratic idea?

[Huguenot]

Too high a percentage of the population is either daft or prejudiced to make government by referenda a sensible option.

A referendum could be more accurately defined as government by the gutter press or the ad wallets of big business, not an appealing option.

The Irish, you will recall, voted against the EU charter for abortion prejudices amongst other ridculous reasons, a decision they discovered to be manifestly against the best interests of Ireland.

QED - voters are daft.

To keep you entertained, here's a few benefits from The Independent

1. The end of war between European nations

While rows between England, France and Germany have been a feature of EU summits, war between Europe's major powers is now unthinkable. The fact that the two world wars that shaped the last century now seem so remote is, in itself, tribute to a visionary project that has permanently changed the landscape. As the EU celebrates the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Treaty of Rome it is clear that while the detailed topography will always be difficult to agree, it is an extraordinary achievement that we are standing on common ground.

Related articles

2. Democracy is flourishing in 27 countries

Spain, Portugal, Greece, and the EU's 10 ex-Communist countries are parliamentary democracies. None of these nations were truly free in the decades following the Second World War. Each is now a democracy anchored within the EU and is unlikely to change course.

3. Once poor countries like Ireland, Greece and Portugal prospering

EU subsidies well spent have been crucial to the lift-off of the Irish economy. Once firmly in Britain's economic shadow, the Celtic tiger has emerged. Gross domestic product per capita in Ireland in 2005 was 137.1 per cent of the EU average, compared to 116.8 per cent in the UK.

4. The creation of the world's largest internal trading market

The 27-nation EU now around 500m people making it the world's largest economic trading bloc. By comparison the US has a population of around 300m. The old EU 25 had 19.2 per cent of the World's exports as compared with 14.4 per cent from the US. This gap is set to grow following the last enlargement in January to 27 member states.

5. Shopping without frontiers has given consumers more power

European consumers can buy goods for their own use in whichever EU country they choose - in person, on the internet, over the telephone, or by mail order - without paying additional taxes. This competition is driving down prices and increasing quality

6. Co-operation on continent-wide immigration policy

Though EU countries set immigration levels the EU is increasingly active in the fight against illegal migration and in trying to match the labour needs of European countries to the supply of migrants. On the downside, the EU is increasingly an impregnable fortress and many lose their lives trying to get here by boat from Africa

7. Crime-busting co-operation, through Europol

This provides a clearing house for EU police forces. The police in EU member states can now use an EU arrest warrant to get suspects moved from one country to another where they will face serious charges without lengthy extradition procedures.

8. Laws which make it easier for British people to buy property in Europe

It may not be good for the environment but access to second homes a short-haul flight away has fulfilled the dreams of millions of Britons. Retirement or regular holidays from the south of Spain to the east of Bulgaria has become a reality for many and a legally safeguarded one at that.

9. Cleaner beaches and rivers throughout Europe

EU law and peer pressure - including annual reports - have forced the UK to clean up its act, for example bringing the once-dirty waters off Blackpool beach up to standard. The first EU legislation was passed in 1976 with two more pieces in 2002 and 2006. Now you can monitor the quality of bathing water by checking on a website.

10. Four weeks statutory paid holiday a year for workers in Europe

The EU Working Time Directive ensures that all Europeans get at least four weeks of paid holiday per year. In the US many workers get a fortnight. The same directive provides for 11 hours rest in every 24 and one day of rest per week plus a rest break if the working day is longer than six hours. Minimum standards are set for paid maternity and paternity leave.

11. No death penalty (incompatible with EU membership)

No EU member state has the death penalty and reintroduction of capital punishment would not be compatible with EU membership. Even countries outside the EU are having to review their policies if they want to be considered for membership of the club, most notably Turkey.

12. Competition means cheaper phone calls

Since the liberalisation of telecommunications in the 1980s loosened the grip of the monopolies, prices have plummeted. The European Commission says the cost of international calls in the EU has fallen by 80 per cent since 1984.

13. Small EU bureaucracy (24,000 employees, fewer than the BBC)

Despite the eurosceptic claims, the number of EU officials is surprisingly small. After the scandal of 1999 when the Brussels based European Commission resigned, strict new rules were imposed on spending.

14. Making the French eat British beef again

When the BSE crisis subsided and British meat was judged safe, the European Court of Justice ordered France to resume imports. France contested the ruling but had no alternative in the end. By contrast, the US retains an embargo.

15. Minority languages, like Irish, Welsh and Catalan recognised and protected

Minority languages are gaining recognition. Be it Irish, Welsh or Catalan, minority languages are getting a greater role thanks to the EU which even has a Commissioner for Multilingualism. Irish became an official language of the EU this year. Catalans have lesser language rights because their tongue is official only in one part of Spain, their member states. The EU - with 23 official languages - is doing more to keep lesser tongues alive than some individual member states.

16. Europe is helping to save the planet with regulatory cuts in CO2

The EU has announced the most ambitious targets for curbing carbon emissions, promising a cut of at least one-fifth on 1990 levels by 2020. Other parts of the world are being challenged to follow suit. The EU also has blazed a trail with its carbon emissions trading system which, despite teething troubles, is still a model for other parts of the world.

17. One currency from Bantry to Berlin (but not Britain)

The Euro is now the only real alternative to the dollar on the international stage. You can travel throughout 13 countries and use one currency. Slovenia became the 13th and latest nation to join the single currency this year. Several more nations have yet to meet the necessary criteria.

18. Europe wide bans on tyrants like Robert Mugabe

Smart sanctions on the Zimbabwean President and his cronies have been negotiated through the EU and prevent those on a list from visiting all 27 nations. Though countries differ in the way they believe the EU should treat the government in Harare, they all agreed to renew the sanctions for another year.

19. The EU gives twice as much aid to developing countries as the US

The European Union and its member states paid out more than ?43bn in 2005 in public aid to developing countries. This is the equivalent of 0.34 per cent of GNP of the 25 member states, and is higher than the per capita aid levels of the United States at around 0.2 per cent. More than ?7bn is channelled through the EU.

20. Strict safety standards for aircraft

Airlines deemed to be unsafe are now banned from travelling into any EU country. Recently some of Pakistan's national carrier were barred because of safety fears.

21. Free medical help for tourists

Any citizen of a European country is entitled to free medical treatment if he or she is taken ill or suffers an accident in another member state. So long as you carry the correct form from your national health service, no questions will be asked.

22. EU peace-keepers operate throughout the world

The EU is building its crisis intervention force and has taken over operations in Bosnia from Nato. EU forces have also been in action in Africa helping avert humanitarian crises. In addition the EU has a big policing project.

23. easyJet and Ryanair can fly anywhere without national rules protecting high cost flag carriers due to liberalisation of air travel

easyJet and Ryanair can fly anywhere without the national rules protecting high-cost flag carriers due to liberalisation of air travel. Any airlines granted a licence in an EU country - meeting safety standards and other conditions - can operate services anywhere within the EU. Between 1992 and 2000 prices at the cheaper end of the market fell by 40 per cent.

24. Introduction of pet passports

Since 2004 travelling across borders with pets has been easier. In addition to pet passports with a vaccination certificate pets require permanent identification which can be either a tattooed code on the skin or a microchip which can be read by a special machine. In the future the microchip is likely to be obligatory.

25. It will soon take only two hours from London to Paris by Eurostar

The Channel Tunnel, and high-speed lines in France and now Britain are not, properly speaking, EU projects. However, the tunnel was built partly as a means of reducing the mental barriers between Britain and the Continent. With the opening of the final section of Britain's fast line to St Pancras this year, trains will travel to Paris in two hours.

26. Prospect of EU membership has forced modernisation on Turkey

The presence of an affluent and stable bloc to its west has given the modernisers in Turkey the ally they needed to create a democratic constituency for change. That change has been pushed through with the promise of a European future.

27. Unparalleled rights for European consumers

Any consumer can send back a product if it breaks down within two years of purchase. Manufacturers often claim that they offer only a 12 month guarantee, but EU law states otherwise and consumers are demanding their rights.

28. Study programmes and cheap travel means greater mobility for Europe's youth

Through the Erasmus programme, in the 2003-4 academic year, 7,500 UK students spent between three and 12 months at a university in one of the other member states.

29. Food labelling is much clearer

All ingredients used in food products must be listed. Any GM ingredients must be mentioned as must colouring, preservatives and other chemical additives.

30. End of the road for border crossings (apart from in the UK)

Frontier posts have been abandoned between the 15 countries that have implemented the Schengen accords. This agreement means that EU nationals crossing most borders in continental western Europe do not need to show passports. The newer nations plan to join in soon.

31. Compensation for air delays

Passengers must get immediate help if their flight is delayed by more than a few hours, cancelled without notice or if they are denied boarding because the plane is overbooked. The carrier must make alternative travel arrangements unless the passenger asks for their money back instead. Depending on the length of the delay they must provide food and refreshments and accommodation if necessary.

32. Strict ban on animal testing for the cosmetic industry

Since November 2004 the EU has banned animal testing on finished cosmetic products entirely. Remaining safety testing on animals of ingredients for cosmetics will be ended.

33. Greater protection for Europe's wildlife

Tough European laws protect birds, flora and fauna, although the EU bird directive is widely flouted in southern Europe, particularly in Malta where 2m migratory birds are shot each year, including 80 protected species which are shot or trapped by hunters.

34. Regional development fund has aided the deprived parts of Britain

Some of the UK's poorest regions have benefited from massive handouts from the EU which has been used to regenerate some of the country's most run-down areas. Scotland's Highland and Islands have benefited enormously as have the Welsh mining valleys, Cornwall and deprived inner cities like Liverpool.

35. European driving licences recognised

Driving licences issued in one EU country are valid in any other, providing they are modern, EU-standard, ones with a photo identity. This means that the old days of having to gain translations for a UK permit to drive in Italy are over.

36. Britons now feel a lot less insular

A famous newspaper headline (perhaps apocryphal) once read "Fog in Channel; Continent Cut Off". Remember the 1960s, when Ostend seemed like an exotic destination? EU membership has not dried up the English Channel but is has helped to remove the psychological barriers between Britain and the continent.

37. Europe's bananas remain bent, despite sceptics' fears

The suggestion that the EU wanted to impose straight bananas, or blue bananas, or ban all but Caribbean bananas, is one of the oldest of Euro-myths. Obsessive euro-harmonisation of rules is a thing of the past.

38. Strong economic growth - greater than the US last year

The EU's ambition to overtake America economically by 2010 has been ridiculed. The German economy has picked up with the UK and Nordic nations are performing strongly. Even Italy, thought to be in dire straits last year, is clocking up reasonable growth. The European Commission said it expects the economy of the 27-nation European Union to grow 2.7 per cent this year, ahead of the US's estimated 2.5 per cent

39. Single market has brought the best continental footballers to Britain

The Bosman ruling, based on European law, and other decisions, have freed up football transfers. From Eric Cantona to Thierry Henry and Cristiano Ronaldo, British fans have been enjoying watching Europe's finest talent for the past 15 years.

40. Human rights legislation has protected the rights of the individual

The introduction of the Human Rights Acts has provided a legal framework to prevent abuses of power.

41. European parliament provides democratic checks on all EU laws

The European Parliament, directly elected since 1979, has been given increased powers over the years. The parliament has made a significant impact in areas ranging from the environment to animal rights.

42. EU gives more, not less, sovereignty to nation states

Switzerland and Norway, two independent countries have little or no negotiating leverage when they deal with the EU. In fact they have less sovereignty than member states who decide the policy. Britons are more able to control their own destiny - in areas from international trade, to environmental protection, to consumer rights - because they are part of a 27 nation, democratic bloc. Real sovereignty, rather than theoretical sovereignty, is enhanced by EU membership.

43. Maturing EU is a proper counterweight to the power of US and China

As it develops common foreign and defence policies, the EU is finding its voice. Europe's interests and those of America and the emerging powers, such as China and India, will sometimes coincide, sometimes conflict. Could Britain's interests be protected if we stood alone or if we became a junior partner of the US?

44. European immigration has boosted the British economy

Hundreds of thousands of Poles commute between Poland and Britain. More surprisingly the economies of both countries are booming. The UK economy has benefited from a surge of well-qualified, highly motivated workers.

45. EU common research programme

Job opportunities and Europe-wide access to education mean there really are Europeans now who see the need to speak at least three modern languages.

46. Europe has set Britain an example how properly to fund a national health service

Some continental countries have health funding problems but several, the Dutch in particular, provide quality care while keeping down costs. It took the EU to rule that British patients had a right to seek care abroad.

47. British restaurants now much more cosmopolitan because of European influences

Britain has become - let us admit it - a more continental country in the last 34 years. We now care about what we eat. Nowhere has this been more marked than in the quality and variety of food being offered in our restaurants.

48. Mobility for career professionals throughout Europe

Professionals from doctors to architects now have a right to have their national qualifications recognised across the EU. Language and cultural barriers will always remain a problem for professionals but there are can no longer be purely protectionist obstacles to a career in another EU country.

49. Europe has revolutionised British attitudes to food and cooking

Despite major drawbacks, the bloated Common Agricultural Policy has enabled small family farmers to flourish in Europe. Its support has led to the birth of the Slow Food movement and arrival in British towns of farmers markets, growing with quality organics produce. Bon appetit!

50. Lists like this drive Eurosceptics mad

In the Daily Mail-Sun universe, the EU can never do any good. Brussels is an insane bureaucracy, which secretly plots to have all donkeys painted blue (with yellow stars). The 50th birthday of the European project is a time to celebrate the many positive things which the EU has brought us.

[SeanMacGabhann]

in short, no, I'm not admitting anything like that

[silverfox]

Thanks for that list from the Independent Huguenot. It's a shame it's a bit out of date. I particularly like the following:

2. Democracy is flourishing in 27 countries - but you can't have a referendum on the EU in Britain

3. Once poor countries like Ireland, Greece and Portugal prospering

6. Co-operation on continent-wide immigration policy

8. Laws which make it easier for British people to buy property in Europe - tell that to those in Spain with bulldozed ruins

46. Europe has set Britain an example how properly to fund a national health service

[Huguenot]

Okey dokey.

Try this one for an interpretation of 'financial' benefits (although clearly I reckon this is reductionist to the point of childishness).

Most commentators, both pro and anti Europe agree that around 3million jobs are dependent upon European trade.

Pro-Europeans estimae 60% of the economy to revolve on European trade, Anti-Europeans suggest it's 10%. Let's take the latter figure - which comes out at $300bn per year.

The issue is how much these figures would reduce if we pulled out of the EU. The peo-Europe say all of it, and anti-Europe say none of it.

I don't think it's plausible to say none of it will be affected. For example, the EU applies tarriffs and disincentives to non-EU goods which would make UK goods less attractive, and political pressure will impact on the location of companies like EU financial firms out of London. Even international firms located in the UK (like car manufacturers) would likely relocate to an EU country for the benefits that confers.

So what the hell, let's just go for the middle figure - out of Europe means 1.5 million fewer jobs, and $150bn less commerce annually.

Since we're a net contributor to EU funds of about $4bn a year, that would put us up S146bn a year.

But what the hell, if you hate Johnny Foreigners and have delusions of grandeur that would no doubt be a small price to pay to cut off your own nose.

[????]

Shame about democracy and all that Hugenot bloody plebs. Of course those people in history utterly convinced in the rightness of their beliefs, outwardly firm in the conviction of their intellectual prowess with obvious contemp to any counter view and with a intellectual arrogance towards the will of the people have presented us with some fantasic states...

[????]

Plus to continually label people who dare to question question further Eiropean integration as Johhny Foreigners haters is schoolkid debating that even writers for The Guardian have realised shows them to be idiots. I question it, I have family in Southern Italy, have lived in Spain and even eat pasta...you should try some thinking rather than stereotypical crap....Your charachetures of eurosceptics as Retired Colonels from the home counties circa 1955 shows just how out of touch YOU are with modern thinking

[SeanMacGabhann]

Quids - be all that as it may, Huguenot is trying to tease out from silverfox just what his solution to Britain's place in a changing world is and how best it can position itself

Huguenot and I happen to be on the European integration side, silverfox is against it and you I think are against it but you hedged that slightly in your last post by saying "you question" it

And all that is fine, but the question remains, if Britain is to not engage with fully with the EU, what do you think it's tactics should be

[Huguenot]

If you think government by mob is a good idea Quids then you're entirely welcome to your conviction. My argument on Europe is a financial one as well as a legislative one, sorry you don't like me poking fun ;-)

If the cost of moving out of Europe would cost us $146bn a year and 1.5 million jobs, what are the overriding convictions that you feel are worth paying that price for?

WW2 cost the lives of 450,000 UK citizens and around $1trn - $2trn in today's money. If the EU has prevented even one war then we've won many thousands of times over. You only have to recall the Balkans to see the consequence of political disintegration.

To me it's just another example of people taking the benefits for granted and refusing to pay the piper.

[????]

I don?t want us out of the EU I don't wantt he next massive change until a clear case is made and it's democratically accepted ? it?s not all white hats and black hats two dimensional arguments. I say ?think? because i always think about my beliefs and politics and question them constantly I would have hoped that is what people should do rather than say ?I?m a XXXist, right where?s my box of beliefs and stances based on that and who are the enemy?, sadly I?m na?ve when it comes to this.

I think my arguments against a federalist Europe are all about political engagement - we are miles away from it as are many in many european countries. Ideally it would be good but a look at the differences in political culture between just the major countries worry me, let alone all the newer ones. It will be interesting to see what the German people think if they have to keep bailing out southern European countries whose attitudes towards their citizenship/participation and responsibilities to the state are miles and miles away from ours and the Germans. In spite of the ?horrible mob? political engagement is vital for a functioning society and it?s bad enough as it is in this country without having further, undemocratic shifts away from our ?people?s sovereignty? - all very inconvenient for you idealists but utterly fundamental. It?s not up to sceptics to create an alternative vison they have one individual sovereign states within a European economic union, it?s up to the politicians who want a superstate to create a workable and clear vision and sell it to us not get it in through the back door which has been their MO to date

I am in favour of an economic union which has/does/would give us all of the macro economic benefits H alludes to as well as practically all the laughable ones in the Indies list. It is also this that has given us 50 years of peace not the next stage. I'm in also in favour of sensible and shared responsibility and co-operation in areas such as crime, eqyuality laws etc even defence (NATO seemed to work for 50 odd years mind and without the French) but these have been delivered to date with what we've got.

As it happens I don?t think the Euro will survive in its present form.

[Huguenot]

Don't ge me wrong. I'm not dissing democracy, I just disagree with government by referenda.

I'm full on for political engagement, but I don't think referenda deliver this. They merely hand the government of our country to populist tabloids and the ad budgets of big business.

I think it's all a bit moot.

Secretly I reckon Cameron know the huge economic and political benefits the EU confers, but he also knows that an anti-Europe stance is a populist one.

Hence he calls for a referendum when he can't be held to account for the drastic repercussions, and cancels it when he can.