Smart phones (+chargers) to refugees

[miga]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And my issue is by people not bothering to read

> what the charity was actually asking for before

> posting false characterizations of the request,

> you put other people off from looking into it. It

> looks 'dangerous, crazy etc' when its nothing of

> the sort.

Just on that *charity* thing, while we're striving to be quite precise...they're not a registered charity (you can look it up, there's a .gov.uk register), but (they claim) a group of volunteers, associated with CalAid (another group of volunteers), and a Swedish group of the same name. Also, and this is not very unusual, they slightly oddly use a .co.uk domain rather than a .org.uk one. So, there's a web site run by a group of volunteers with not much information on it, on a .co.uk domain, asking for smartphones with insufficient information for the layman about cleaning them up prior to donating. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, perhaps they're a new outfit, but I totally understand a circumspect reaction as expressed by DF, Loz et al.

I'm open to the idea that you know something that's not visible to everyone on the web site, though.

[LondonMix]

The request to me as written plainly on the website is straightforward and doesn't ask anyone to expose themselves to any greater risk than they would normally disposing of their old phones.

You agree that the characterization of the appeal to help refugees as "CRAZY"is fine for reasons I don't understand at all.

If that's how you see it let's just agree to disagree as I don't actually find arguing just for the sake of it interesting.

[miga]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You agree that the characterization of the appeal

> to help refugees as "CRAZY"is fine for reasons I

> don't understand at all.

Jeepers - misquote much? I already said DF's original wording was OTT but that I understand his circumspect reaction.

[Loz]

Your quote from the website STILL doesn't back your claim that they only asked for SIMs from industry people. Face it - it's not there. You, not DF, are wrong on this.

And sorry, but you accuse me of disparaging a charity because I agreed on a technical point with DF... and somewhere along the way he used the word 'crazy'? Is that it? Really? Could you grasp at a more tenuous straw?

I could post a lot more on the dangers of giving away your phone, if you really want.

[LondonMix]

Sorry Loz, I didn't mean to suggest that they would only accept SIMs from industry people.

On the website they say 'SIMs from companies, brands and individuals in the industry and beyond.'

Given that they are asking for pay as you go SIMs from very specific companies, for me it was clear that they didn't want everyone's phone with its SIM but only a specific type of SIM from 2 named providers as its own separate donation.

Given that if you want to donate SIMS you need to email in for additional information, it is clear that the donation is completely separate from the general request for smart phones. To get all the SIMs they need to equip the phones will require bulk donations, and they are not just planning on taking them from the general public coming to the SOHO drop off point. Otherwise, why would there be a need to contact them separately?

It is 100% clear that you didn't know or read any of that based on your post on the matter. You, based on DF's post very clearly thought they were asking for people to hand over their sims in their phone and even asked why they would need them.

I do think it is disparaging and reckless to post information undermining the efforts of an organization trying to help people without bothering to fully understand the request and clearly explaining what you think is wrong with it. Agreeing with a broad characterization that donating is crazy I think is irresponsible.

You disagree, which is your right and clearly nothing I can say on it will convince you otherwise.

I'm not sure there is anything left for either of us to say.

[LondonMix]

Miga my entire issue with DF is that he characterized the request as CRAZY , which based on the facts I've read, I don't believe it is. If he had said, those considering this should ensure they correctly erase the data on their phone as the company has instructed and linked to the best ways to do this I have repeatedly said I would have no issue with that. What exactly is it then that I am saying that you disagree with? Seriously, what are you taking issue with that I have said?

miga Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LondonMix Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > You agree that the characterization of the

> appeal

> > to help refugees as "CRAZY"is fine for reasons

> I

> > don't understand at all.

>

> Jeepers - misquote much? I already said DF's

> original wording was OTT but that I understand his

> circumspect reaction.

[Loz]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry Loz, I didn't mean to suggest that they

> would only accept SIMs from industry people.

Your very long diatribe was against the very specific risks of handing over your sim card, which is not what is being asked by the charity.

and

They are asking companies and people working in the industry for sims that are pay as you go without roaming fees in Calais that the charity will then top up with donations.

Amusingly, you keep telling everyone else to read things properly. You could start with your own posts.

> Given that they are asking for pay as you go SIMs from very specific companies, for me

> it was clear that they didn't want everyone's phone with its SIM but only a specific type of

> SIM from 2 named providers as its own separate donation.

> It is 100% clear that you didn't know or ready any of that based on your post on the matter. You

> based on DF's post very clearly thought they were asking for people to hand over their sims in their

> phone and even asked why they would need them.

Actually, I did read the website and, as I have shown, it does ask for SIMs. You are the one who seems to be making stuff up that isn't on their website. E.g. they don't ask for two specific companies, as you claim, but actually says "for example pay as you go SIM's from Lebara or 3." (my emphasis).

> Agreeing with a broad characterization that donating is crazy I think is irresponsible. You

> disagree, which is your right and clearly nothing I can say on it will convince you otherwise.

Weasel words, and dishonest ones as well. You have been a master of misrepresentation on this thread. Nowhere did I say that. I said, quite clearly that "I'm with DF - there is no way I'd hand over a SIM.". And then I explained quite clearly the rational behind that statement.

> I think it is disparaging and reckless to post information undermining the efforts of an

> organization trying to help people without bothering to fully understand the request and

> clearly explaining what you think is wrong with it.

You are the one that doesn't seem to fully understand what they are asking. On the other hand, I did read it and understand it, saw what the dangers were and I very, very clearly explained why. I am really annoyed you have accused me of disparaging the charity, no matter no many weasel words you use to try and justify it.

If anyone has made this particular charity look bad on this thread, it would actually be you. You've inadvertently represented it with a rather deranged-sounding voice, wildly misrepresenting what people say and calling names at anyone who dare contemplate discussing or questioning any aspect of the request.

[miga]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What exactly is it then that I am saying that you disagree with?

> Seriously, what are you taking issue with that I

> have said?

The most recent thing that you've said that I disagreed with is this misquote:

> You agree that the characterization of the appeal to help refugees as "CRAZY" is fine

Which I've already neutralized.

In general on this thread I've disagreed with your:

* asking people to delete their posts

* initial misinterpretation of this group's web site, from which you then backpedalled**

* inability to concede the validity of some posters' circumspection.

* incorrectly characterizing this group as a charity (admittedly a minor point)

So let me just restate my original point, for avoidance of confusion:

> DF might have used language that's a bit OTT, but the information on how to prepare

> your phone and/or SIM on that web site is pretty scant, so a worthwhile point to consider

> for anyone contemplating donation.

**You said:

> They aren't asking individuals for their SIMs in general, just the smart phones.

> They are asking companies and people working in the industry for sims that are pay

> as you go without roaming fees in Calais that the charity will then top up with donations.

Which has already been countered.

[Help-Ma-Boab]

I love a good courtroom drama, so I do..

[LondonMix]

I don't have time to keep going back and forth on this. I emailed them. They don't want anyone's old SIM card!!

Email them yourself if you don't believe me- they respond very quickly.

They want new SIM cards donated to them. Whether that was crystal clear or not from the information on their website we can debate until the second coming but they have now confirmed that to me in writing so I really am not going to continue arguing whether its the case or not.

ETA- Before, I assumed that anyone who actually bothered to read the site would have realized they weren't asking for old SIM cards. I accept now that its possible that someone may simply have drawn the wrong conclusion. Despite all of the back and forth on the thread, for the sake of the organisation, I hope people will correct the information, whatever the reason the incorrect statements about the SIMs were posted. Anyone who does so, I'll happily delete my responses to them about it from the thread.

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LondonMix Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Sorry Loz, I didn't mean to suggest that they

> > would only accept SIMs from industry people.

>

> Your very long diatribe was against the very

> specific risks of handing over your sim card,

> which is not what is being asked by the charity.

>

> and

>

> They are asking companies and people working in

> the industry for sims that are pay as you go

> without roaming fees in Calais that the charity

> will then top up with donations.

>

> Amusingly, you keep telling everyone else to read

> things properly. You could start with your own

> posts.

>

> > Given that they are asking for pay as you go

> SIMs from very specific companies, for me

> > it was clear that they didn't want everyone's

> phone with its SIM but only a specific type of

> > SIM from 2 named providers as its own separate

> donation.

>

> > It is 100% clear that you didn't know or ready

> any of that based on your post on the matter.

> You

> > based on DF's post very clearly thought they

> were asking for people to hand over their sims in

> their

> > phone and even asked why they would need them.

>

>

> Actually, I did read the website and, as I have

> shown, it does ask for SIMs. You are the one who

> seems to be making stuff up that isn't on their

> website. E.g. they don't ask for two specific

> companies, as you claim, but actually says "for

> example pay as you go SIM's from Lebara or 3." (my

> emphasis).

>

> > Agreeing with a broad characterization that

> donating is crazy I think is irresponsible. You

> > disagree, which is your right and clearly

> nothing I can say on it will convince you

> otherwise.

>

> Weasel words, and dishonest ones as well. You have

> been a master of misrepresentation on this thread.

> Nowhere did I say that. I said, quite clearly

> that "I'm with DF - there is no way I'd hand over

> a SIM.". And then I explained quite clearly the

> rational behind that statement.

>

> > I think it is disparaging and reckless to post

> information undermining the efforts of an

> > organization trying to help people without

> bothering to fully understand the request and

> > clearly explaining what you think is wrong with

> it.

>

> You are the one that doesn't seem to fully

> understand what they are asking. On the other

> hand, I did read it and understand it, saw what

> the dangers were and I very, very clearly

> explained why. I am really annoyed you have

> accused me of disparaging the charity, no matter

> no many weasel words you use to try and justify

> it.

>

> If anyone has made this particular charity look

> bad on this thread, it would actually be you.

> You've inadvertently represented it with a rather

> deranged-sounding voice, wildly misrepresenting

> what people say and calling names at anyone who

> dare contemplate discussing or questioning any

> aspect of the request.

[LondonMix]

They are not asking people for their SIMS! Again, email them if you don't believe me.

So, with that said, I do think the characterization of the groups requests and objectives as CRAZY should be deleted and I think suggestions that they are asking people to donate their old sim cards should be deleted as its inaccurate.

I do think a link should replace DF's first post that instead provides the best way on erasing your phone as the website suggests you should for those that might not be familiar with best practice. That's not what is in DF's first post but I think it is a very good idea.

Those are my views. Go ahead and disagree with me but unless you have something new to say about it, I'm done responding as we are just repeating ourselves at this point which is dull.

miga Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LondonMix Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > What exactly is it then that I am saying that

> you disagree with?

> > Seriously, what are you taking issue with that

> I

> > have said?

>

> The most recent thing that you've said that I

> disagreed with is this misquote:

>

> > You agree that the characterization of the

> appeal to help refugees as "CRAZY" is fine

>

> Which I've already neutralized.

>

> In general on this thread I've disagreed with

> your:

> * asking people to delete their posts

> * initial misinterpretation of this group's web

> site, from which you then backpedalled**

> * inability to concede the validity of some

> posters' circumspection.

> * incorrectly characterizing this group as a

> charity (admittedly a minor point)

>

> So let me just restate my original point, for

> avoidance of confusion:

>

> > DF might have used language that's a bit OTT,

> but the information on how to prepare

> > your phone and/or SIM on that web site is pretty

> scant, so a worthwhile point to consider

> > for anyone contemplating donation.

>

>

> **You said:

>

> > They aren't asking individuals for their SIMs in

> general, just the smart phones.

> > They are asking companies and people working in

> the industry for sims that are pay

> > as you go without roaming fees in Calais that

> the charity will then top up with donations.

>

> Which has already been countered.

[miga]

Oh, I believe you that they're asking people to donate their newly bought SIMs. The new information is the 'new' bit, which wasn't on the web site. I, and apparently almost everyone else on this thread, was able to divine the rest of that from the web site. Glad we're all on the same page now.

[LondonMix]

Okay, I've read my old posts and while I thought that's what I was saying when I said they weren't requesting people to provide their Sims from their phone and expose themselves to identity theft, I could have said they want new SIMs from companies, individuals in the industry and beyond.

It was clear to Sue by the way but I accept that while the reading was obvious to me, it might not be crystal clear to everyone given the separate request for old phones.

[miga]

You could have said that, but then you'd have been foretelling information that's not on the web site and that you found out subsequently. Also, AFAICR, they mention both old and new phones.

It really is a terrible web site, and I'm in agreement with DF's and Loz' initial caution much more now than earlier, when I was merely understanding of it. I will continue supporting charities which are run much more transparently.

[LondonMix]

Transparently?! Ok... You are clearly just looking for a fight so I'll stop taking the bait

[Loz]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Despite all of the back and forth on the thread, for the sake of the organisation, I hope people will correct the

> information, whatever the reason the incorrect statements about the SIMs were posted. Anyone who

> does so, I'll happily delete my responses to them about it from the thread.

I'm not playing your games. You've made some scurrilous accusations but, as Wellington said, publish and be damned.

Besides, as I've pointed out, your responses have actually done the most damage to said organisation. If you choose to leave them up, that's up to you.

[LondonMix]

I was trying to be conciliatory offering to take down the posts now that its clear that the group isn't asking for old sims as has repeatedly been falsely claimed on this thread. I don't feel the need to take down anything I've said but thought offering to do so might induce others to at least correct their statements. I see now there is no point, which is what it is.

I've not called you or anyone else any names by the way. That simply isn't true.

To anyone who is interested, the group do very much need (new) Labara or 3 pay as you go SIMs as indicated on their website. There is a shortage of these relative to phone donations. They also need cash contributions towards topping up the SIMS.

[Loz]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I was trying to be conciliatory offering to take down the posts now that its clear that the group

> isn't asking for old sims as has repeatedly been falsely claimed on this thread. I don't feel the

> need to take down anything I've said but thought offering to do so might induce others to at least

> correct their statements. I see now there is no point, which is what it is.

Conciliatory, my a***. You have annoyed me enough that I have a few more things I can post on why handing over a phone or a SIM is a bad idea. I was holding them back but, frankly, I no longer see why I should.

[LondonMix]

Loz, they are not asking for the donation of used SIMs but rather brand new, unused pay as you go SIMs from the providers indicated. Please go ahead and post the dangers of handing over a used phone if you want, ideally with tips on how to best avoid the dangers if you have that information.

I'm sorry you are annoyed but it was a point worth clarifying for those that might want to donate but would be put off if it involved providing their sim with their phone (which is not at all what the organisation is after).