Territorial Army

[david_carnell]

In attempt to save money, the TA have been told to cease training their troops/members.

This will save an estimated ?20million.

When a single Eurofighter is estimated to cost ?95million is this the most efficient manner to cut costs in the armed forces?

Should the defence budget be ring-fenced whilst we have troops fighting in Afghanistan and still pulling out of Iraq?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Given that TA has decreased in numbers from 57000 to less than 20000 in the last 12 years.... does it matter?

[david_carnell]

Yes it matters.

Not only is it disastrous for all concerned but after a long break it is harder to get people back again as they pursue new activities and pastimes etc. Not to mention the skills fade and the need to retrain personnel when qualifications lapse - and then there is a large waiting list to get back on courses during the next couple of months of restarting etc.

And what about all the recent recruits awaiting to join the next courses having done the entrance and perhaps weekend one- will they wait 6 months to get in, I think not.

I think this is a cunning ploy by the MoD to make people leave the TA without them making swingeing cuts where publicity may go against. There is a plan out at moment to cut TA again by 10,000 so if a load leave who cannot train etc then this helps that overall effort.

At a time when the TA still gives significant help to the regulars it seems the height of madness. If the defence budget needs trimming (and by god it needs restructuring) then there are far better candidates that the TA which is, for the main, a thoroughly worthwhile and respectable outfit.

[Jeremy]

An honest question - what do the TA actually do? You say they give significant help to the regulars, can you give examples of this?

It does annoy me that we have (possibly) the highest military spending in Europe, and seem to get caught up in far more conflicts than our peers. Imagine how much money we'd save if we stopped pursuing various agendas overseas...

[Brendan]

Ah but the big military gives Britain that little bit of extra political whack that it can no longer maintain as an actual world power.

Or perhaps, as the Dailymash recently put it, makes Britian look like a man on ?30K a year who gets up to his eyeballs in debt to buy an Aston Martin that then just sits on his driveway most of the time and makes him look like a tit.

[david_carnell]

Jeremy ? I don?t have any of the latest figures on TA deployment to hand but ??in 2003, 9,500 reservists, the vast majority of them from the TA, were mobilised to take part in Operation Telic, the invasion of Iraq, in contrast only some 420 Regular Reservists were called-up. Approximately 1,200 members of the TA continue to deploy annually on tours of duty in Iraq, Operation Herrick in Afghanistan and elsewhere, normally on 6 month-long roulements.? (Wikipedia)

We do have the highest military spending in Europe and I am happy to listen to arguments that this should be cut or at least made more efficient. But whilst we have government and opposition united in their belief in interventionist policies, the number of infantry soldiers required will remain high.

Battleships and jet fighters are all very well but they have a tendency to be a bit cumbersome in a policing/security/hearts&minds role.

[Brendan]

You?re right. That?s a different argument altogether. I wish people would stay on topic. This is the serious discussion room after all.

[Huguenot]

"Highest military spending in Europe..."

That's kind of moot:

Percentage of GDP on military spending:

UK 2.4%

France 2.6%

Greece 4.3%

(Singapore 4.9%)

I can't think of a single thing those Frenchies have done with their armageddon cash!

I feel sorry for the TA, as most of the guys I knew who did it didn't seem to realise they were about to spend 6 months in Iraq for something they originally associated with a good weekend piss-up.

Perhaps that was being taken into account?

[david_carnell]

Huguenot - the French overseas presence (mainly in Africa) eats up a lot of cash.

[Jeremy]

I don't think it's moot.

Does a country with a higher GDP necessarily need a nuclear programme, a larger air force, and more troops?

Just because we "can", does it mean we "should"?

[SteveT]

Why cant we be more like France and surrender immediately, when the next war starts?

[Brendan]

Well I suppose at least it would be cheaper and cause less heartache.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Sometimes I WISH that England was part of mainland Europe just so it wasn't so pompous about other countries

[david_carnell]

Because the French and Italians are never pompous?!

But back on topic - the nub of the problem is that for decades we have had government's that have wanted an armed forces to be able to fight wars in far-flung corners of the globe but steadfastly refuse to pay for it.

And the Army, because it doesn't get as much flash, expensive toys as the other forces (no boats, submarines, jet fighters, helicopters etc) - those things that Defence Ministers love to boast about buying - they are often the ones who suffer. The SA80 standard asssault rifle being a case in point. Piece of junk for twenty years yet we can find the cash for other white elephant projects.

I can speak from first hand experience on the sums that are wasted on exploratory research and outside consultants yet troops on the ground go without.

For me, that's pretty shocking behaviour.

[SteveT]

The guys in uniform often reject government issue and buy better quality with their own cash, and they are not well paid.

Not many people know that.

[Brendan]

Sweet Christ it seems there must be something really wrong if that?s happening.

[Huguenot]

Not necessarily, there can be many reasons for buying your own kit (such as status or pride) that have nothing to do with the quality of the original.

We may buy ourselves a fountain pen for work, but it doesn't mean the biros don't work.

That's not saying I know anything about it, just observing that the issue may not be black and white.

[Brendan]

Upon reflection they probably aren?t buying assault rifles on the open market.

[SteveT]

Sixty dollars will get you an AK47 in Mogadishu market, which I thought was a bargain.

Hmm I wonder......is a tenner any good, for that scratched one, as the best has been knocked out of it?

[david_carnell]

When Mr Kalashnikov (of AK47 fame) was shown an early example of the SA80 assault rifle that the British squaddie currently uses he stared long and hard at it before quietly remarking, "...you must have very clever soldiers...".

All army kit needs to be "squaddie-proof" - if it will break they'll break it.

K.I.S.S - Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Some army, somewhere will always have a better piece of kit than us. The Austrians have better guns, the Russians have better winter clothing, the Yanks have better body armour etc etc. And the soldiers and officers of the British Army have been buying their own bits of kit for as long as the army has been in existence.

[SteveT]

david C wrote:- "...you must have very clever soldiers..."

Does this mean it is a complicated piece of kit to keep maintained and firing in all conditions?

[HAL9000]

The initial SA80 earned a bad reputation for unreliability - the newer A2 version is said to be an improvement.

Compare: SA80 vs AK-47

[Santerme]

SteveT Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The guys in uniform often reject government issue

> and buy better quality with their own cash, and

> they are not well paid.

>

> Not many people know that.

I don't know, I left 5 years ago and was very well paid, especially so in theatre...

SA80 is a good weapon, not a great one as a preference I would have the German H&K G36.

The AK is good and luckily the choice of the insurgents, where you are generally safe if standing in front of them.

They tend to pop off rounds at an alarming rate and after the 4th it becomes an anti aircraft weapon.

[Santerme]

SteveT Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The guys in uniform often reject government issue

> and buy better quality with their own cash, and

> they are not well paid.

>

> Not many people know that.

I don't know, I left 5 years ago and was very well paid, especially so in theatre...

SA80 is a good weapon, not a great one as a preference I would have the German H&K G36.

The AK is good and luckily the choice of the insurgents, where you are generally safe if standing in front of them.

They tend to pop off rounds at an alarming rate and after the 4th it becomes an anti aircraft weapon.

[syenite]

Whilst the Brown governmnet has now found some of this ?20m to fund the TA, significant cutbacks in are still in force. Londons main TA infantry regiment is parading just 1 tuesday night instead of every week plus weekend training (which is the most efficient and cost effective) is cancelled until April 2010.

The net result is that all the soldiers will undoubtedly find something else to do on tuesday nights. So what I hear you ask....

Well the London Regiment has just mobilised a large number of soliders for Op Herrick (Helmand Province) and with these experienced members away, a void for training those still behind is created. It is likely that the London Regiment will be asked to send troops again very soon, so with everyone still in the UK unable to train having six months off, their skills start to fade and they wil need to start afresh in many cases. They may then be compulsory mobilised with an unsuitable level of base training.