Stephen Gately

[david_carnell]

Suspicious = foul play

Mysterious = not knowing why

"Mysterious circumstances" would seem appropriate to me. The police have ruled out a crime but they've hardly illuminated the situation.

And this forum thrives on gossip, be it about local shops, local characters, politicians or food. Just be glad the EDF wasn't running when that fella died in Barrymore's pool!

[bignumber5]

*Bob* Wrote:

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> No-one has said anything about 'suspicious', BN5.

>

> But 'no cause of death' is a mystery, especially

> if you're only 33.

As I understand the legal aspects of investigating these things, any drug related death is classed as suspicious because it needs to be clearly established that the drugs were taken willingly. I may well be wrong. No cause of death known might be mysterious, no cause of death emailed directly to *Bob* for summary judgement may well just be privacy. Should I ever consider a career as a forensic pathologist or a coroner, I'll be sure to have you on speed dial.

[*Bob*]

You can telephone me anytime for a wild speculative guess.. that's all I'm offering, I'm afraid.

[annaj]

probabilty v possibility?

Well, if it's statistics you're after, trauma is the leading cause of death in young adults and many accidents happen in the home.

So, actually, the knife in toaster or the slip on the milk are more probable and statistically more likely than drugs, but a lot less gossip-worthy. Which was kind of my point.

[david_carnell]

Hmmm.... I'm not convinced Anna.

Name celebs and music stars that have died due to falling over or electrocuting themselves.

Now name celebs who have died due to drugs/alcohol overdoses/mishaps.

Which list is longer?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Anna - I'm not sure that probability stat holds up as you narrow the sample-group towards the entertainment end of the spectrum

Jimi Hendrix' death has never been completely explained, but I don't think too many people are clinging on to the belief that it was a slip on some milk or a knife in the toaster

No one heard the news about Janis Joplin and thought "how could this be???" Well, not no-one but you get my drift

If Shane McGowan kicks the bucket tomorrow, and police say there was no unusual activity, we can still say with a fair degree of certainty that it was drink what done it

None of this is to trample on the man's grave. I don't think anyone cares he was gay and if it turns out he died because of alcohol poisoning or drugs or something a bit more salacious than slipping on a floor I won't think any less of the guy.

But there isn't a pop star in the world, straight or gay, who lived their life in public and gossip columns, who won't be the subject of speculation if they die young. Nature of the business and nothing at all to do with being gay

[bignumber5]

The list making could equally be turned around: you name everyone that did die from drugs & alcohol and everyone not on that list died some other way...

But all that misses the point of probability vs. deliberate causation/increasing personal risk, specifically in the area of pathology, which is unfortunately the direction that this has taken and so my inner geek needs to have its say because, to quote Ben Goldacre, I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Statistically, I am unlikely to die with pink pants on my head and a badger in my mouth, but should I choose to don such attire and jump off a cliff then I beat the statistics. Statistics only indicate the probability of outcomes within a group but do not affect the judgement calls of the individual. To state that the probability of a young gay man in the music industry having experience with GHB is greater than the probability of, say, a 62 year old tea-shoppe owner having done the same thing is statistcally accurate, but the chances of a single young muso having done so are absolute: 0 or 1, which is the same as for the other person. To assert that a certain cause of death is likely in an individual without knowing anything more than these demographics is, as *Bob* has freely admitted, speculation. You can serve it with a knowing side-order of "well, yeah, but come on..." if you want to, but speculation it remains. It might be a larf, but it answers nothing and it can potentially be offensive as it implies jugdements about risk behaviour that are not necessarily based on anything. Opening the door to stereotyping, even statistically reasonable stereotypes, is a slippery slope and one that I wanted to confirm that I am absolutely not on. If Stephen Gately turns out to have died in a GHB related manner, I will still feel validated in this view because, crucially, I'm not saying he didn't, I'm saying that I don't think there's anything to base that conclusion on at this time.

Alternatively: Jimi Hendrix deceased, drugs. Janis Joplin deceased, alcohol. Mama Cass deceased, ham sandwich. And I can't believe Liberace was gay; women loved him, I didn't see that one coming... :))

[Jah Lush]

Sorry but I feel compelled here to add this: Jimi Hendrix chocked on his own vomit because the ambulanceman laid him on his back instead of in the recovery position. It's true he'd done a lot of drugs but if he'd been placed on the stretcher in the ambulance properly he would not have asphyxiated and possibly still be around today.

[Asset]

honestly, mountain out of a molehill or what?

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Cass Elliott died from heart failure - ham sandwich sounds as good as pink pants and a badger but is in the same category.

[red devil]

david_carnell Wrote:

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> Name celebs and music stars that have died due to

> falling over or electrocuting themselves.

Rod Hull tuning his TV roof aerial...luckily Emu survived the fall

[Jah Lush]

Asset Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > honestly, mountain out of a molehill or what?

Indeed! He was only a poxy singer in a very irritating and crappy boy band. Hardly a legend. There. I've said it.

But it is always very sad that someone has died so young.

[annaj]

Well, yes, it has become a bit of a mountain out of a molehill, but I stand by my original point.

His death may have been drug related, but at this stage there is actually no evidence of that and I found the gossipy speculation unecessary and a bit unpleasant.

Of course, in making my point I have allowed myself to be drawn into the speculation along everyone else, which is silly and I'll leave it alone after this.

The bottom line though, whether all you knowing types (and I'd be lying if I said the "come on Anna, don't be so naive, it was obviously drugs" tone hasn't annoyed me. Believe me when I say I am far from naive about death, celebrity or otherwise) choose to believe it or not, is that the majority of celebs die of the same things that normal people do. The relatively small number of high profile drug and alcohol deaths are memorable, because of the coverage they recieve, but certainly not the majority.

As for the argument that it doesn't matter what we say here, because it's just a little local forum, well, yes, that's true. But in another sense we are more than a little forum. We are part of the wider media and what is said here is in the public domain. The speculation that surrounds the death of anyone in the public eye is painful to those who knew them and I just don't see the need for it, particularly not from people who can be very scathing of local gossips and curtain twitchers when it suits them.

[*Bob*]

Speculating about the death of someone in the public eye who died (as DC aptly put it) 'under mysterious circumstances', ie unexpectedly, is not the same as speculating about why there might be an ambulance outside the chip shop. Or whether someone walking down the road who looked a bit funny might or might not have got up to no good, had he not been chased off by a gang of pitchfork-wielding locals. That is a dubious comparison.

We had twenty pages on Jacko. Untimately, this is no different.

More speculation and conjecture: (look away now, if speculation and conjecture offends)

If someone went to sleep on a sofa and was dead in the morning, why would it be initally descibed as 'a tragic accident'?

When was the last time you needed to 'check on' someone who simply crashed on a sofa after a night on the lash?

[mockney piers]

His dad said that he'd died in his sleep on a sofa, so I'd be pretty amazed if he'd been sticking a fork in a toaster. I guess it's just as likely to be alcohol related, but bob's scenario hardly in the realms of fantasy and if bettig allowed such morbid speculation I'm dure would have the shortest odds.

Could have been totally natural of course, aneurism, unexpected heart attack (friend of mine dropped dead in his Sunday lunch at 22 of just such an occurence, though I suspect the sheer amount of MDMA and speedhe regularly did of a weekend may have had a factor in that.

Anyway, it's sad, condolences etc. but it's hardly an event of world shaking proportions is it, and a little idle speculation is food fornthe forum, not sure why this should somehow be different.

[woofmarkthedog]

For sure he died as a result of intoxication and it's consequences.

Is it better that it was alcohol ?

Is it better that it was drugs ?

Or is it worse that it was either alone or in combination ?

The 33 yr old man's dead whatever caused it so rest easy troops, ohh & apparently in a latest report "Michael Jackson died healthy"

W**F

[James]

So tempted to wade into this one but I am resisting!

Well done me

[*Bob*]

Wade in - if not specifically on SG, then on the wider point:

As a gay man, has my speculation offended you?

[Ladygooner]

Natural causes apparently - lungs filled up with fluid

[sophiesofa]

How on earth do luncgs fill up with fluid? Did he drink too much liquid?

[Jah Lush]

Ladygooner Wrote:

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> Natural causes apparently - lungs filled up with

> fluid.

That doesn't strike me as natural. Not at 33 anyway.

[*Bob*]

sophiesofa Wrote:

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> How on earth do luncgs fill up with fluid? Did he

> drink too much liquid?

I'm sure there are lots of possible reasons.

Again, I know what my guess would be.

[annaj]

Against my better judgement....

Pulmonary oedema (fluid from within the body filling the airspaces of the lungs) is not the same as aspiration (fluid, such as vomit, being sucked into the lungs) and the pathologist has specifically used the term pulmonary oedema. She has also said that alcohol and drugs were not the cause of death. There are lots of causes of pulmonary oedema and the tests on the pulmonary fluid may yeild moren information.

So, your guess might not be as spot on as you think, *Bob*.

But why let the facts get in the way of a good gossip. I mean as long as it's about a famous person, because they don't count, do they?

[dbboy]

All gone too early

Michael Jackson, David Carradine, Patrick Swayze, Kieth Floyd, Stephen Gately

[vinceayre]

Probably died of a broken heart if his husband is in the bedroom having it away with a stranger and he is relegated to the couch.

I mean come on, they were obviously practising a particular lifestyle that some young gay men may or may not partake in, said lifestyle involeves solvent/drug use and extra marital sex, it would be a small leap to speculate that this is how the tragedy came about. His friends and family are hardly going to be saying that he died out of his head on poppers are they. Either way he died too young and it is a tragedy for his family and friends, for us it is idle tittle tattle until the next one goes.

Do we not demand this life/death of our rock and film stars, Wacko, Elvis, Morrison , Hendrix, Monroe , Dean all are legends partly because they died in their prime, didn't get old and senile and have been therefore captured in our minds as young and never to age.