Should all migrants learn to speak English

[Ridgley]

A legal challenge to immigration rules that force foreign national to learn English before coming to the UK to join their spouses has been thrown out by judges.

The Supreme Court rejected claims that the pre-entry checks were 'unreasonable, disproportionate and discriminatory'.

But is it unreasonable for foreign nationals who come to live to in Britain should learn to speak English not just to communicate with others British citizens but also to find legitimate work?

[Blah Blah]

Define earning English. Au Pairs for example come specifically to learn English here. How would such a requirement have a affected them, along with genuine refugees and asylum seekers?

I personally think the high court was right to throw it out. Many people go on holiday unable to speak a word of the language of the country they visit. It is also perfectly possible for someone to go somewhere unable to speak a language and learn it there. Demanding people can speak English before arriving is descriminatory in the sense that only those with certain atandards of education available to them would be eligible to migrate. That's not the kind of workd I want to live in.

[LondonMix]

I agree. Also, how can you keep a married couple apart because one of them can't speak English? How would this impact their children etc. I'd be interested to know how many people immigrate long term to the UK and never learn English? My guess would be very few.

[Jeremy]

I'm not going to lose any sleep over this. If you want to live in a country, you should be able to speak the language - or have the desire and means to learn. The spouse should have thought of that before coming over.

I have friends who grew up here, and whos parents barely speak English. It's inexcusable IMO.

[LondonMix]

I agree if they've been here for years it bad form. However, I have two friends (both Polish) who moved to London without knowing English and both are totally fluent now and were been within a year. Like I said, I don't know how common not learning the language ever really is. I only know of one person whose mum never really learned though everyone else in the family did including his father. I think its because she was a stay at home mom (and always intended to be).

Anyway, I don't think you can morally keep a family apart for a reason like that. Just for a moment imagine it was your family. You'd made your way someplace, gotten a job and filed for them to finally join you and because your wife didn't speak the language yet they were denied entry. That's crazy. The old rule was that they had to learn English within 2 years of moving here which is much more reasonable and should be reinstated.

[Jeremy]

Learning Enlgish within a certain time period would also be perfectly OK with me.

But it needs to be a prerequisite for indefinite leave to remain.

[LondonMix]

It is and was. There is an English Language test you have to pass to get indefinite leave to remain (I know as I've been through the process). That's why this newer requirement as a pre-requisite is unfair in my view.

[Loz]

It used to be that they had two years before they took the test, but they changed the rule. I suspect that deporting the ones that failed was proving difficult.

[uncleglen]

In the late 1980s the Docklands area were putting on basic English Speaking courses for the many immigrants that were living in North Southwark. They even employed an outreach worker to go to homes and inform people. There were free creches as well. The outreach worker reported back and said that many of the husbands of Asian women would not allow her to even speak to the outreach worker or take literature in their own language. We assumed that the husbands did not want their wives to be westernised....

[miga]

What level of knowledge would you require Jeremy and would you enforce it in some way, given the chance?

I think it's perfectly possible to live a productive life and make a decent contribution to society with only little or no knowledge of the official language of the society you live in. Indeed, many people have done just this in the UK and other Western societies.

[LondonMix]

I can believe that some husbands from certain cultures wouldn't allow or want their wives to learn English for a multitude of reasons.

Loz, what do you think the issue was with deportation? I don't doubt this might be true but am curious.

[Alan Medic]

Thankfully I knew a bit of English when I arrived here many years ago. If it wasn't for the English I'd probably have been a Gaelic speaker. Cheers.

[????]

Rather than the legality or just the statuory thing, I would have just thought it would make sense for multiple reasons, largely for their wion benefit, if someone did?

[Otta]

I'm with Jeremy on this. Don't think you should need to speak English to get here, but if you're hanging around then you should learn it.

I deal with a parent who has been here years (like 20 years) and we all know she can speak passable English, but in order to try to play the system she claims she doesn't understand. We are then forced to waste sparse resources on interpreters just so that she can no longer claim she doesn't understand (even though she understood damned well in the first place). It's ridiculous.

[Loz]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> Loz, what do you think the issue was with deportation? I don't doubt this might be true but am curious.

Oh, not based on anything concrete - just my thoughts, purely based on

1) It's easier to refuse entry than to deport someone.

2) Deporting people is notoriously difficult and costly.

3) Less lawyers involved!

[Loz]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> Learning Enlgish within a certain time period would also be perfectly OK with me.

Chortle.

[miga]

I think it must be very limiting, and even a little sad, to not understand the world around you.

But there's a difference between acknowledging the lack of fulfillment in such an existence and deporting those who live it because they "ought to this" and "should that".

[Blah Blah]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> If you want to live in a country, you should be able to speak the language - or have the desire and means to learn.

Tell that to the millions of expats in Spain who don't speak any Spanish.

I'm also against deporting people just because they fail to make the grade in an English class too (although I could support compulsary language lessons in principle) for all the reasons LondonMix points out.

We have english nationals who are barely able to hold a conversation or communicate in a reasonable way, and poor language skills is at the heart of that too.

How we deal with cultural issues, where women are kept disadvantaged is another matter.

[Alan Medic]

Well said miga.

[Jeremy]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> Tell that to the millions of expats in Spain who

> don't speak any Spanish.

Yep I feel exactly the same about English expats. They should speak the language. In fact English expats, for instance in Spain, are even worse because they can't blame poverty or lack of opportunity.

LondonMix Wrote:

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> I can believe that some husbands from certain

> cultures wouldn't allow or want their wives to

> learn English for a multitude of reasons.

What are the reasons? Surely we do not encourage opression of women, regardless of culture. So it's a moot point.

[DulwichFox]

Many 'Brits' choose to live in Spain often in purpose built 'villages' that are a little bit of England in the sun.

Whilst some attempt to learn some Spanish it rarely seems to extend past Por favour, Gracias, dos cervezas.

This may be acceptable in groups of people of a certain age who may well be all retired on permanent holiday.

When migrants settle in the UK they will often also live in 'designated' areas often due to language barriers.

They become isolated. To truly integrate with the community learning the native language is a necessity.

If you want to work in the UK. Schools, Hospitals, shops ... being able to speak English is essential.

DulwichFox

[LondonMix]

For bad reasons Jeremy. I wasn't in anyway condoning that behaviour. It's at a minimum controlling and potentially worse. I was agreeing with the point being made and saying it could be more than just not wanting them to westernise.

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Blah Blah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Tell that to the millions of expats in Spain

> who

> > don't speak any Spanish.

>

> Yep I feel exactly the same about English expats.

> They should speak the language. In fact English

> expats, for instance in Spain, are even worse

> because they can't blame poverty or lack of

> opportunity.

>

> LondonMix Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I can believe that some husbands from certain

> > cultures wouldn't allow or want their wives to

> > learn English for a multitude of reasons.

>

> What are the reasons? Surely we do not encourage

> opression of women, regardless of culture. So it's

> a moot point.

[Loz]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Jeremy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> > If you want to live in a country, you should be able to speak the language - or have the desire

> > and means to learn.

>

> Tell that to the millions of expats in Spain who don't speak any Spanish.

I wish someone would.

In a previous job I had to visit the British consulate in Alacante. Most of their work is dealing with the ex-pats who have little to no clue about the country they'd spent the last decade or so in. Every government form they had to fill in, they'd have to come to the consulate for help. Hopeless.

[Otta]

I am sureBrits abroad are some of the worst offenders.

I don't have any suggestions about the law, my point is simply that if you live somewhere you SHOULD TRY to learn the lingo.

And you shouldn't use your kid as your personal f*cking interpreter!!!!!!!!!

[LondonMix]

I agree with that. The thing is, I speak a couple of languages (Spanish and French) and without having lived in those countries for at least a short while I could never have become fluent. I studied Spanish for 5 years before living in Spain and learned more Spanish in the first 3 months there than I did in the 5 years before that combined. Before I moved there I couldn't have been called fluent at all. Once I was there though, I was and was very quickly. Making fluency in English a pre-requisite is just too high a bar I think.

I remember one other person I know who moved to London without know English. An Italian friend back in 2008 who was friends with one of my best friends at the time. He is still in London, fluent in English now and in a serious relationship with an English girl.