"Pakis" v "Dour Presbyterian Scots"

[mockney piers]

I thought the impossibly sensitive was just referring to quids ad absurdo extension of the argument such that Essex types are being racistly slandered.

[SeanMacGabhann]

He was and I overreacted

I'm trying desperately to make it up to him behind the scenes!

[Mick Mac]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> I didn't make an inference - I asked the question

> what was the point of starting the thread ? I came

> up with one possible answer, which I didn't think

> but was intended to prompt an answer

>

> 2 things are likely to happen if you start a

> thread like this

>

> 1) Some people will go "good point - I was allowed

> to call them pakis when I were a lad and now I

> can't - why not? It never did them any harm"

>

> 2) Worthy's like me will be on high-alert for #1

>

> I'm still no wiser what the point of the thread is

> really

Usually sean its to have an interesting discussion. Not trying to achieve anything major. Just to get people thinking and posting their opinions.

[Brendan]

This can all be summed up into one sentence:

Don?t be a dick.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Assuming this all came about because of Strictly Come Dancing, the passnotes on du Beke were amusing

Anton

[Keef]

I actually think this is a decent thread abouyt a topic that has been in the news. There has been nothing offensive posted, and Sean I did cringe when I saw you post asking Mick if he wanted people to say it was okay for him to call people Paki.

I just didn't jump in initially because I didn't want to be viewed as arguing just because it was you ;-)

[annaj]

What Passnotes said.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Yeah I regret jumping in so solidly - I still think asking the question "Why is the use of "Paki" derided but "Dour Scots" is acceptable. " is a bit disingenuous tho

But cringe or not, a lot of people do want permission to use the term - switch on LBC or almost any talk show discussing the subject now and you;ll here them - so I just asked the question

[Mick Mac]

I honestly thought "Dour Presbyterian Scots" was potentially offensive. Paki is obviously offensive and it is now understood to be so by almost everyone, so only a racist would use it in today's world.

Whether it was correct to link the two or not is debatable, but the point I guess was that if enough Scots began to complain about the phrase then it would eventually be highlighted to such an extent that people would think twice about its use.

I have no knowledge on this but logic suggests that "Paki" was once a shortened version and later became recist as a result of it being adopted by racists.

As for Annaj's comment - you can make a comment about an individual being a dour scot, but to make a general comment Dour Scots, suggest they are all dour and is for me technically racist. As for the I'm one myself so its not racist defence, well I don't think it matters a jot that the person who used the phrase was himself Scottish and he was speaking on behalf of the national broadcaster.

And yes I like a good argument.

[womanofdulwich]

if you said "you look like an indian" would that be ok? Don't indians often consider them selves better than people from pakistan? I work with 2 indians, and they are completely hung up on each others caste. Can someone from Pakistan let me know how they would feel about this?

[SeanMacGabhann]

if someone is indian, why would you need to say "you look like an indian"

if someone isn't an indian, why would you want to?

And of course all races and cultures exhibit racist tendancies - but it shouldn't be acceptable in any case.

As for Dour Presbyterian Scots - if you combine all three, the scottish people I have met who are Presbyterian do tend to be dour. But then so do the irish Presbyterians. I haven't met any Presbyterians from Pakistan tho.. so can't comment

That's the thing with presbyterianism - dourness is sort of built in. I don't think it's particularly Scottish. And besides no one is scrawling "go home Scotty Presbyterians" on any houses that I know of

[Moos]

I think MickMac raised the right question early on in this thread - is it about how it's intended or how it's perceived?

Basically, the rule of thumb (in my view) is about how it's perceived. If it becomes generally understood through long useage in a negative way that a term is perceived as racist, then even the most innocent use may cause offence. So if you call your best friend a Paki and he calls you a Sweaty in return and it's OK between the 2 of you, then that's up to your private interaction. But if you use it in general even meaning no offence then you could be causing offence by people who don't know you and your intentions - here, the effect of your statement is to say 'I'm expecting you to take on board my good intentions and good thoughts, even though I'm using a term which I know others have used as part of racist hatred'. I don't think that's reasonable.

Of course, the upshot of all this is indeed that people become nervous and sensitive, and some are perceived as over-sensitive. It does become a bit tedious when one cannot use any descriptive term without potentially incurring the wrath of people quick to sniff out prejudice on behalf of groups to which they belong, or on whose behalf they are suspecting prejudice. I think it's a question of lesser evils, and I'll be a bit more sympathetic to the grumbling about PC gone mad (not that I've heard it on the thread, just to be clear) when we don't live in a world of blatant prejudice and disadvantage.

Also, this is a great thread and very relevant to concerns of today, and just airing of views and experiences, so thanks for starting it. I'd really like to be engaged in it more, but am frantically busy today, so just will hope I haven't caused any massive offence, and will duck out now.

[mockney piers]

Dour new englanders is common in the states. Anywhere with a Puritan tradition basically.

As sean says it comes with the spiritual territory, like Catholics and guilt, though I imagine of I say a guilty Irishman I've entered a whole different semantic minefield!!!

[Ted Max]

the scottish people I have met who are Presbyterian do tend to be dour

But as the Church of Scotland, the mainstream church in Scotland, is Presbyterian, you would be describing an awful lot of people if you were to extend that observation beyond those who you "have met".

[Brendan]

Is calling someone, dour and insult in the first place?

It could just mean that they are unlikely to wear a pink tinsel wig. Which is a good thing isn?t it?

[SeanMacGabhann]

and the weather must contribute as well. To the dourness I mean

But point taken Ted. Having done a driving holiday over 2 weeks I was on both coasts, and the very middle. I did indeed come across a LOT of dour people. But in truth, I quite like a bit of dourness

signed

A Guilty (ex)Catholic

[Jeremy]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> no one is scrawling "go home Scotty Presbyterians" on any houses that I know of

head, nail on the.

[????]

  Quote

..apart from on No10 Downing Street

[Brendan]

Now listen here Sean you know you can?t be an EX-catholic. Just because you don?t believe in god, don?t go to church, don?t participate in any religious activity have broken all ties and completely disassociated yourself from the catholic church doesn?t mean you aren?t catholic.

I bet you?re a pisshead too.

[Ted Max]

  Quote

and the weather must contribute as well. To the dourness I mean

Ireland and Scotland surely share a climate. Yet you Irish are all fiddle de dee and come all ye, and the Scots are only known to smile when they see a dog run over.

How to explain it?

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Did you not see that episode of 'Hamish Macbeth' when Wee Jock was run over?

[Brendan]

Marketing Ted, marketing. It?s the only difference between a squirrel and a rat you know.

And you don?t do yourselves any favours with those fucking pipes.

[????]

..especially as Ted gets up at dawn to play them in Dulwich Park just to annoy us

[Mick Mac]

the irish tried the pipes for a while, decided they were pants and sold them to the scots (on ebay i think).

[iaineasy]

weren't the bag pipes invented in india or pakistan or somewhere over that way??