The war memorial at Dulwich Common

[macroban]

I appreciate the work that is being done. Thank you.

In the 1950s family and friends called this the East Dulwich war memorial, and I've never heard any other name for it. Did other residents have another name for it?

With the removal of the other local war memorial from the grounds of Dulwich Hospital and the removal of the rolls of honour boards from the local churches it is, de facto, the East Dulwich war memorial.

Perhaps this thread could be re-named "The East Dulwich War Memorial", subject to anyone else having better information and later discussions with other attendees in November.

[peckham_perkster]

Dannyboy - Thanks so much for your posts they have been really helpful! If you could have a butchers at the Imperial War Museum at the list that would be brilliant. I didn't read your post above mine about them being like the 'home guard' so apologies for being dim.

We've had a look at the information on the War Memorial Fund and realised it won't cover everything but we should be able to get about ?250 from them which is not bad for a starting fund and I doubt we will need thousands! I've given the information to the Reparation guy who is going to start following this up. At the meeting they were really excited about this as it covers a lot of areas for the scheme such as education in teaching them about WW1, botany with the plants, local history etc. We often find when working with the clients that they are proud of their work so getting them to come along to an 'opening' of it would be great so they really do feel they've achieved something.

Questions

1. Does anyone know anything about the church there? It appears to have a CCTV camera at the front door and clearly the second building is used but I have no idea what the main church is now.

2. Is anyone part of the East Dulwich Local History group or does anyone know someone that is? It would be good to get the details of a contact there as I'm sure they must have some information about the memorial and why the regiment were 'ill fated'.

I think that's all for now :)

[TillieTrotter]

Mr Green from the art shop in Dulwich Village is a wealth of information regarding anything Dulwich. Lovely chap as well.

[Lewis]

Hi,

I'm the local councillor for this part of Dulwich. I think its an excellent idea to use one of the reparation schemes to restore the memorial. If you think you need some more funds for the full restoration, why not make an application under the Cleaner Greener Safer scheme? The forms on the council website and closing date is end of the month. I would be happy to support it, and come and do some weeding, if invited! If you want to discuss give me a call on 07815 208066.

[Amelie]

The lists held by Dulwich College and Alleyn's may only be of their pupils, then again they might not, I still think it is worth a try.

[Louisa]

I went up last sunday to take some photos which I have now sent off to the National War Memorial people along with a very nice letter explaining what everyone on the EDF is doing and how supportive you all are for this project. I am also looking into getting a special wreath made from real poppys locally at one of our very many LL florists, which we can hopefully lay this November at the memorial on behalf of the EDF.

[val]

John Allen flowers is a good florist

[peckham_perkster]

Louisa that sounds promising, hopefully they'll have some information or advice. I love the idea of a wreath in real poppies as well.

I've spoken to the local councillor about this and he is going to hopefully come back with some useful information about this. He has also suggested we apply for funding through the scheme he mentioned which I think is a great idea but this wouldn't arrive till the autumn. I plan to get the Reparation scheme in to do most of the work but we could still use any money given for other work.

I met up with other mentors along with the person who runs these projects on Monday and we've come up with lots of ideas about this and everyone is keen to get cracking as soon as possible!

[peckham_perkster]

Hello again!

An update...

I've been to the church and got permission from them to do the work and are in the process of applying for funds to get extra work done to the memorial.

As an aside to the project has anyone been inside the church? IT IS STUNNING! The church that uses it is filled with the most welcoming and friendly people who were interested in what we were doing and encouraged the work and wanted to get involved to help the young people if possible. Anyhow, I digress. The pastor told me that they have no records for the church and have no idea who built it or the history of it! The church stopped being a place of worship in 1984, it was bought by a property developer who couldn't do anything with it because it's a Grade 1 listed building. mainly due to the stained glass windows. so he sold the whole thing to them in 1996. In the time the developer had it any records or details of the church were lost which they are really sad about as people turn up looking for records about births, deaths etc. Having had a look around I have a hunch that it was built by Horniman as the second building outside was built by a 'Frerderick Horniman MP' in memory of his wife Rebekah. The building went up only a few years after the church was completed and was designed by the same architect, Charles Barry. The church have asked the local history society but they don't seem to know much about it so if anyone does have any clues let me know, it used to be called St. Peter's Church.

If you do ever get the chance to go in and have a look if it's open, don't be afraid to go in, they are happy to do so and the building is worth it. It's the only church I've been in where the stained glass windows behind the altar have Jesus on the Cross without a beard! He does look scarily Aryan.

[peckham_perkster]

Oh, and by the way when I say Charles Barry was the architect I am not sure if we are talking about the man who designed the Houses of Parliament as he died in 1860 and the church wasn't finished till 1885 with the new building being put up roughly at the end of the century. He may have designed these all before he died though as it is an odd coincidence and the style is similar.

[Ko]

PP - give yourself a big pat on the back! (tu)(tu)(tu)I will definitely go in and look at the church some time.

[peckham_perkster]

Mini update

Spoke to a woman from Dulwich College who looks after their archives as Charles Barry designed some of their buildings. The Charles Barry who designed St. Peter's is definitely not the architect of the Houses of Parliament, it was his son. As the church is just down the road from the college there is a chance it's all part of the same commission so she is going to get back to me she's also given me the details of a man she thinks will have more knowledge about this.

Phew!

[Ko]

PP - have you tried the Dulwich Society's history sub-committee? If not, contact is:

www.dulwichsociety.org

Local History [email protected]

Brian Green, 133 Burbage Road SE21 7AF, 020 7274 1996

The Dulwich Society people are always very helpful.

[macroban]

I believe that Charles Barry did this one too.

[peckham_perkster]

Ko: Thanks for this! The woman at Dulwich College gave me his contact details as well so I shall be contacting him very soon to see if he has any clues for us.

I know that church on Rosendale as my mate lives up the road and have been watching the rennovations with interest. It would make sense that he designed this as well, thanks for that I may go in and have a look.

[macroban]

Is this it?

"Dulwich, London. Dulwich Memorial Fund. Circa 1919., 1919. Original appeal leaflet issued by the DULWICH MEMORIAL FUND inviting donations for building a war memorial "to perpetuate the memory of our Brave Heroes of Dulwich, who have paid the supreme sacrifice for us in the Great War of 1914-1919". Folded sheet, 220mmx145mm. The aim was to establish the memorial close to Dulwich Library. The appeal was under the patronage of Lt. Col. Sir Fred Hall KBE DSO MP and the former Mayor, Alderman H.J. Rayment, together with Rev. H.E.Jennings, Rev. Maxwell R. KIrkpatrick, Rev. Eric S. Waterhouse, Captain Day (Salvation Army), Mrs F.M. Drayson, John Tyler, A.Nisbet (Solicitor), H.W.Eames, J.C. Chappel, R. Richards, etc. The Chairman of the Appeal was George E. May with Captain A. Clark (Treasurer) and F.E. Hammond (Secretary)."

[Louisa]

I am still waiting on a response from Southwark Council which was sent nearly two months ago now. I hope PP still has this group of volunteers willing to help rebuild and smartern up the memorial area.

[peckham_perkster]

Hello I'm back with a sort of update!

I have not forgotten about this at all, but have been busy getting it assessed and sorted out with the Southwark Youth Offending Team who unfortuntely have been struck with the dreaded lurgy so progress has been slow, but things are now back on track.

I've discovered that the Dulwich Volunteer Battalion were a proper fighting force that joined the Surrey First Rifles so this means they would have seen action and also explains why the dates go from 1914-1919 as some would have served in Russia. Next week I am taking as holiday and will be going to the Southwark Local History Library to try and dig up some information on the regiment and those who served, if anyone has any extra information in the meantime that may be a lead I can follow then let me know.

Macroban I saw your info on the Memorial and when I'm convinced that this is the one as the information matches with what little I know about it. I shall PM you in case you have anymore nuggets of knowledge.

As soon as I know more I will let you know.:)

[macroban]

Thank you for the up-date. I look forward to reading the results of your research.

The memorial did look reasonably attractive today with the flowering green ground cover.

[macroban]

Just a thought, prompted by peckham_perkster.

If you have the opportunity, why not ask an elderly person what they remember about the memorial?

It would be a shame if any more East Dulwich oral history is lost.

[Dannyboy]

Very glad that you've been able to find some time to keep working on it pp - good effort!

1914-1919 is pretty standard for war memorial dates - not just because of the (very small) forces that went to Russia, but because the actual peace (rather than the 11 November Armistice) wasn't signed until July 1919.

I don't doubt that some of those who put up the memorial might have seen service. But if the Dulwich Volunteer Battalion amalgamated with the Surrey Rifles, the likelihood is that it happened (at least officially), well before the First World War. The Surrey Rifle Volunteer Battalions were amalgamated/renamed into the Queen's Royal Regiment (West Surreys) in 1881 - and the battalion list doesn't have a Dulwich unit: http://regiments.org/regiments/uk/inf/002WSurr.htm. Local volunteers might have thought of themselves as a 'proper fighting force' - and they might either have gone together to a local TA battalion pre war, or joined up with the regulars together in 1914. But no official 'Dulwich Volunteer Battalion' (or 'Surrey Rifles' come to that) saw active service in the First World War. The list of wartime battalions and service here - http://www.1914-1918.net/queens.htm - suggests to me that if pre-war volunteers did join up together in the West Surreys they would either have added to the war establishment of the Territorial units formed in Croydon, or joined the Service battalions of the regiment formed in Battersea, Brixton and Lambeth. There's an account of the wartime career of two junior officers from Clapham, one of whom joined the Battersea battalion of the WSR, here: http://www.1914-1918.net/heroes/lane_robson.htm. It might be worth contacting the Surrey regimental association and the county history section. But remember that although theoretically geographically bounded, in fact recruitment was very flexible and confused. Volunteers from SE London might well have joined the London Regiment, the West Kents, the East Surreys or even the Middlesex Regiment - and that's just the infantry. Once conscription was introduced in 1916 (and that's probably the _political_ reason for putting 'Volunteer' on a memorial), local affiliations were further reduced.

Other than reasons of historical precision, I'm not sure that whether it was a 'fighting force' or not matters. We've got to remember both the variety of military service and the total nature of the First World War. Plenty of those who were in uniform never saw action, or did so only at a distance. Many of those on the Home Front rendered service that was as valuable even though they never bore arms (arguably, in that sort of conflict, the work of accountants and logisticians behind the lines is as important for deciding victory as anything else).

The politics of local war memorials are interesting, however, and worthy of further investigation and research. Macroban - I take it this is an archival listing? Where is it from?

[Louisa]

I am so pleased so much is now happening with this, thansk to PP. I've had nothing but short sharp responses from the council and the legion, but then again I can be a little stroppy. Thanks again to everyone whos investigated and contributed to this topic.

[Dannyboy]

I had a look on 'Soldiers Died in the Great War' - the CD database which includes additional details about the British dead of 1914-18 - at the National Archives yesterday. It is searchable by place of birth and of abode. The former returned 293 soldiers who had told enlisting officers that they were born in Dulwich. I didn't have time to do more than a quick scan through about half the records, but most of them still lived close by when they joined up or were conscripted. Almost all of them were infantrymen serving in 'southern' regiments - the London Regiment, the Middlesex, the Royal West Kents, the East and West Surreys. Some had travelled quite a way to enlist - including one man living in Peckham who went to Enfield to enlist in the Middlesex Regiment at the start of the war (presumably he knew someone already in it). Fascinating, and despite the paucity of really detailed information, very moving - only at this level that the reality of mass bereavement starts to become even partially comprehensible. I was a bit rushed for time, but I'll try to get back to it and get a list of names (for birthplace and abode) printed off.

[macroban]

Thank you for reporting your continuing research, Dannyboy.

This makes me wonder if the London Artists' Rifles was part of the London Regiment or the Middlesex Regiment (or neither).

[Marmora Man]

Interested in this general subject? See link below.

Honour The Covenant