Do we arbitrarily choose to be offended ?

[Jeremy]

I don't really give a hoot if people want to wear their own clothes, eat their own food, go to their own church, whatever. But what really is frustrating is when people don't learn to speak the language (English expats are even worse, of course).

[LondonMix]

ETA: My friend is Chinese (born in Hong Kong) for context about language issue.

One of my friends mum's has lived in England for about 30 years and still speaks very little English. Her husband and her kids all speak perfect English (and her son is married to a white English girl) but she was never able to pick it up. I'm not sure how that happens but I don't think it was just because she didn't care. I agree though that its not remotely unreasonable to expect people to be able to communicate in the country's official language if it has one. The US doesn't actually have an official language, which of course makes the issue even more complicated over there.

I've been thinking about it and I also agree with what Otta said before, when he turned the proportional question on its head. I don't know anywhere outside of London well enough to have an opinion on how integrated the rest of the UK is or why the proportional integration would be higher outside the capital than in. However, it makes sense that if only 5% of the population outside of London is ethnic minorities, even if the majority of people don't socialize with people outside their own race, as long as those very few minorities weren't shunned by absolutely everyone, the statistical averages would be much easier to achieve. In a city as diverse as London, anyone without any friends outside their own race would drag down the statistical averages dramatically.

[Jeremy]

Well I think outside big cities ethnic minorities are often more integrated because there's not much choice. When there's only one other african/indian/etc kid in your class, you learn to integrate pretty damn quickly.

[LondonMix]

Yeah, exactly. Also, even if most people don't befriend you, you'd have to be shunned by absolutely everyone not to statistically be integrated. With that said, I don't really have any sense of the rest of the UK. How open people are etc compared to London in the rest of the UK.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The way that media and entertainment has changed has had a big impact on shared experience, values - regardless of your background. Two people could be born in the same street and have little in the way of a common culture.

We all used to watch one of maybe two or three TV programmes which were on offer of a Saturday night for example. We all used to know who was no.1 in the music charts. There was only so much cultural product available and we all to a greater or lesser extent, shared similar reference points.

Music, TV, film, Literature and art are now endlessly available and from all over the world. There is so much information, entertainment and culture from which you can chose.

[miga]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> I'm not trolling you Miga!

OK, good. The reason I asked is that it's a classic trolling technique to misinterpret/misquote/invent your interlocutor's statements repeatedly, then hone in on the newly created arguments. Trolling, of course, is a more flattering interpretation of that behaviour than some alternatives.

In any case, you should be able to re-read the first conclusion of the report, then what I said at the top of page 4, and see that they're boringly similar. The first conclusion of the report then further points out that integration in London in particular, and as it relates to ethnicity, but also two other categories, is worse than in the rest of the country. It does so in this bit: "Londoners are proportionally less integrated by social grade, ethnicity and age than the rest of Britain."

> I think when you said

> diversity doesn't necessarily lead to integration

> it suggested that diverse areas like London aren't

> integrated.

So, as should now be obvious from re-reading, neither I nor the report, the conclusion of which I fairly closely paraphrased, make an absolute claim of that nature. However, a relative claim that London is less integrated than less diverse places is made (and backed up) and that's what's interesting (and you appear to go some way to accepting in later posts, when you talk about why other, less diverse places might be more integrated). The reason I picked up on this is that my experience of living in large multi-cultural cities is one where people of different backgrounds cluster. You yourself have seen this - e.g. in your workplace which (according to you) at 15% of BME vs. 40% BME in general population represents, in my eyes, an example of that lack of integration, or clustering. In this it's not unique, everywhere I've worked in the City has a similar very unrepresentative breakdown. I see it in things like the different racial make up of different neighbourhoods, with e.g. the Catford South ward where I now live having a 45% white population, vs. 70% of ED where I last lived, or 85% of Balham (well off) or Eltham (less so). And there are many ways you can measure (and people really do) the substantially different life experiences of different racial/ethnic groups; education, earnings, health, likelihood of being a victim of crime etc. This is, after all, why there are so many schemes, charities, think tanks grappling with the many issues around very different life outcomes in the different groups. These observations around clustering, different lives in the same city etc. can co-exist with the observations that people intermarry and we all have multiple friends from different backgrounds, or that the UK in general, (admittedly, London a little less so), is further along with integration than some other societies.

Perhaps it's wording. When you use the past participle "integrated" - perhaps you mean "a little bit" or "quite a bit" of integration has occurred. I think the process is far from done, especially in London. When I say "not necessarily integrated" or "clustered" you appear to hear me saying "total segregation", "no integration at all" and worry about my life experiences, advancing years and so on, for which thanks.

> I'm repeating myself because I said that several days

> ago one of my very first posts on the matter so

> with that I won't respond to you further as you

> seem to find it upsetting.

I'm also repeating myself - it's quite dull, isn't it - in my experience, in big multi cultural cities, London included, people tend to cluster according to culture/ethnicity/class. That is reflected in where they live, who they interact with, what kind of jobs they do etc. (some of these things are used in the report to measure integration). It turns out this is a phenomenon that's been studied and there is evidence to back up its existence, for which thanks Saffron. It also gives useful words to express this difference - diversity vs. integration.

Thank you, by the way, for your concern about my emotions, but it was sheer frustration rather than upset, admittedly followed by acute physical pain from stabbing myself in the eye with a fork. And with that, I'm now definitely bowing out of this, as I now need my good eye more than ever.

[LondonMix]

Okay Miga since you addressed me I'll respond.

The only thing I think I have ever disagreed with you on is your statement that most social interactions outside of work were racially homogenous in London. That's not my experience of London and to that extent I do see London as racially well integrated. Why it's not perfectly socially integrated by race as I've said comes down to factors beyond race per se in my view (economics, culture, religion) etc. Once people have 20 percent on average friends outside their own race as is the statistical avg for London extrapollating from the report, not having proportionally more is unlikely due to race alone. You may disagree, which is fine. We can agree to disagree (as I've said before). Compared to other cities I've lived in I've seen more racially heterogenous friendship groups and romantic relationships in London which is why I made my original statement. Again, that's my experience, I understand yours is different.

I never once said that people didn't still cluster at all (in fact I explained that I thought it was due to reasons other than race very early on). I don't know the rest of the UK and my point has always been about my experience of London.

Your point about the City is too complicated to respond to as I'm on my phone but only 10 percent of my office is from the UK. The combination of socially immobility and heavy expat recruiting are the first things that come to mind as part of the picture. I'm not saying there isn't racial bias in hiring decisions in London but I don't think that's the case in my office.

ETA: If you don't want me to respond to you, then don't mention me or quote me in your posts. I only say this as you seem to still think I'm picking on you or am intentionally trying to make you feel bad or something. So whether I agree with anything else you say, I won't specifically respond to you unless you quote me or address me.

[adonirum]

Turned into, and has become, a good, interesting, informative thread.

[uncleglen]

Last Christmas when the thing was going on in North Cross road I was walking past the mosque and there were 2 youngish (about 7 and 4 )children there with a man. The entertainment was in full swing and the boys were looking in the direction of the stage. Then the man took them up North Cross in the opposite direction...

[KidKruger]

Why do you think that was ?

[Otta]

Uncleglen, do you still teach?

And did you used to drink in the CPT and have a name starting with a J? Serious questions, as you remind me of someone and I've been meaning to ask for ages.