Crystal Palace cinema campaign - send objections to church use now

[bigbadwolf]

I haven't treated you with any form of condescencion, so I don't see how I've been patronising towards you Keef. I just didn't think your argument was very concise. That's all.

[louisiana]

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Keef Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I'd like a cinema, but I just believe that most

> of

> > the people against this application are against

> it

> > more because they don't want a church there,

> than

> > the fact they'd be regular visitors to the

> cinema.

> > For that reason, I hope the church wins.

>

> Keef - I am one of the people who wants it to fail

> because its a church. The reason for this is that

> churches have money from donations, they build a

> church to have a presence in a society whether

> there is a real demand for that church or not.

> They do not have to have significant attendees to

> survive as the wider based church donations pay

> for its upkeep.

Don't forget Mick Mac that a religious charity will also get *substantial* income from a whole panoply of tax breaks. In other words, quite a bit of the money comes from the taxpayer, rather than just from donations. We are all paying for these organisations. And at a time of cuts etc., I don't think cuts here will be on the agenda.

>

> The cinema is a business - if there is no demand

> it will fail. But it is likely to be of use to

> more people in society.

> The church will lie empty 95% of the week and

> contribute little to society, but take up a prime

> space.

>

> We don't need more churches, demand for them is

> falling dramatically.

>

> Its not a case of people objecting just because

> its a church, there is usually some logic, and a

> more attractive alternative is being offered.

Absolutely. Evening footfall is really important in the Triangle area, and I'd also suggest a 'safe haven' at night on this stretch is really important for women in particular.

[Keef]

If a group of people need defending, I'd tend to defend the L&G community in CP, rather than a pastor and church that actively supports discrimination against the L&G community, and protests to the government about being forced to treat people equally. (Where's the charity there, eh?)

This is a fair point, and I hope no one thinks that I would side with the church on this sort of thing. However, I also believe in free speech, and I believe that everyone, even the most vile of people, should be allowed a voice. I also thing thast the L & G community are quite able to stand up for themselves.

I guess that if it were a BNP Headquarters rather than a church, I'd be on here speaking against it, so in that sense, I guess I should be against this.

My simple point is that I believe that many people are against this just because it is "a church", without really having read up on it. If it were a catholic church, would people still be AS against it?

Just for the record here, I am not actually trying to argue with anyone, I am trying to have a conversation about this issue. It's just like the St Anthony's primary school thread, it was about cars outside a school, but one or two posters had to make it about religion, and get offensive, and I just find that so so hard to stomach, and feel that there is way too much of it on this forum. It is the one thing on here that really gets me.

[woofmarkthedog]

For me it's quite simple, I prefer a posh cinema as the opening hours & films are better, I'm unashamedly middle class & like places like the Roxy Cinema in Brixton, so to have one closer to home would be great.

A church at best opens what twice a week, just not convenient enough and you cant buy pop-corn & ice cream at a church.

W**F

[Keef]

I agree with pretty much everything in that post (except for the middle class bit, although some people would say I was). Picturehouse cinemas are the nuts, and it would be great to have one close to Sydenham (shame the dulwich lot will all be coming to the area for it).

[Mick Mac]

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Keef Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I'd like a cinema, but I just believe that most

> of

> > the people against this application are against

> it

> > more because they don't want a church there,

> than

> > the fact they'd be regular visitors to the

> cinema.

> > For that reason, I hope the church wins.

>

> Keef - I am one of the people who wants it to fail

> because its a church. The reason for this is that

> churches have money from donations, they build a

> church to have a presence in a society whether

> there is a real demand for that church or not.

> They do not have to have significant attendees to

> survive as the wider based church donations pay

> for its upkeep.

>

> The cinema is a business - if there is no demand

> it will fail. But it is likely to be of use to

> more people in society.

> The church will lie empty 95% of the week and

> contribute little to society, but take up a prime

> space.

>

> We don't need more churches, demand for them is

> falling dramatically.

>

> Its not a case of people objecting just because

> its a church, there is usually some logic, and a

> more attractive alternative is being offered.

You did not respond to my post Keef - I'll assume that's because you thought it was just "super".

[Keef]

Sorry Mick, I didn't realise you wanted a direct response.

[louisiana]

Keef Wrote:

>

> My simple point is that I believe that many people

> are against this just because it is "a church",

> without really having read up on it.

Believe me Keef, I have done a lot of reading. I have a stack several inches high!

If it were a

> catholic church, would people still be AS against

> it?

Well, as someone from a Catholic background from two countries, I also have my issues with Catholics.... :-/

People should be free to believe what they want, but I have issues around taxpayers subsidising the practice and propagation of bizarre belief systems, of whatever kind. I feel there are other priorities for our hard-earned cash.

[Keef]

Yeah fair enough, but a lot more of our taxes get spent on other things that I'd say are an equal waste. Anyway, please don't think I was suggesting you hadn't read up, you obviously have. Sorry if it looked as though things I've said on here have been directed at you personally, they genuinely haven't. I just disagree with you that is all.

[mockney piers]

"Members of the Evangelical Alliance council were alarmed by his fundraising methods, particularly when he allegedly linked the level of donors? contributions to his own ministry with the extent of God?s blessing on the donors? lives. The concern was about ?the suggestion of so automatic an equation between material offering and divine favour?."

I gather the time honoured response to this is to nail your complaints at the sale of these indulgences to the burch door.

I'm with woof all the way on this one, posh cinema showing back to back Eisenstein, Bergman and Dodgeball.

[Mick Mac]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry Mick, I didn't realise you wanted a direct

> response.

There are some post you just can't argue with.

Overall, I see your point Keef and to a certain extent you are correct, we should not object to churches just becasue they are churches. There needs to be a demand for them however and I'm not sure how this is measured or whether churches just like to have a presence in most areas.

[Keef]

Now that I agree with. Basically, I am not at all against the cinema. I am not particulary for the church either. This may not have been the place for it, I just feel that there is an underlying, sometimes unpleasant anti religion thing going on, and although I wouldn't call myself religious, I was raised that way, and feel quite defensive of some good people, whom I feel are ridiculed needlessly by some people for no good reason other than to show that they are somehow intellectually superior. Like I say, I've probably picked the wrong place for it, so my bad.

[Bizzy]

I understand it would be easy to find fault with a Church if you were a non-believer. I also understand that a lot of people don't know what a Church does or what a Church can do for its local community (i.e. opens once a week for trade?? :-S).

There are many Church's that run on seriously tight budgets. There are also many Churches that run on comfortable budgets. When you say a Church is "too rich, therefore I don't like them", you are in effect taking a personal view on the Church in question.

This whole campaign is dressed in misrepresented facts; I'm sure there are genuine objections in there but to me the majority are on dirt digging exercise, rallying troops and all the rest of it.

[woofmarkthedog]

These are the people who wish to open a "church" in Upper Noorwood, I'm not keen on this kind of Church at all, they do little or nothing for the general population of the area. The area of Upper Noorwood needs positive regeneration however, once the churches like these get in the areas decline is sadly on it's way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsway_International_Christian_Centre

W**F

[louisiana]

Bizzy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I understand it would be easy to find fault with a

> Church if you were a non-believer. I also

> understand that a lot of people don't know what a

> Church does or what a Church can do for its local

> community (i.e. opens once a week for trade??

> :-S).

>

> There are many Church's that run on seriously

> tight budgets. There are also many Churches that

> run on comfortable budgets. When you say a Church

> is "too rich, therefore I don't like them", you

> are in effect taking a personal view on the Church

> in question.

No Bizzy, it's a question of law and regulation. The Charity Commission has clear operating guidelines about how charities should conduct themselves, and clear reasoning behind these positions which makes eminent good sense.

[Bizzy]

Loisiana

It sounds like the auditors have regularised the accounts. Why is this still a problem?

Woofmarkthedog

Please explain how a Church like KICC could contribute to the decline of the area? I personally don't know much about the Church and would be interested to know how this could happen.

[iaineasy]

For what my opinions worth, I think the church is a bad idea as the building is a cinema and should be restored and used as such, I have nothing against religion, but alot of these evangelical churches are little more than a cynical attempt to raise money for the "pastor" and offer not much if nothing back to the local community, except total traffic chaos on sundays. There have been a few cases recently of the charities commission getting involved with these evangelical churches because of the cynical way they manipulate the system and in one or two cases they have been taken to court for there actions,If the "church" that takes over the building is a spurious registered charity how much council tax etc do they pay? I am no expert on these things but I think its likely to be very little.

Using the building for what it was designed for is in my opinion the right way to go and has more prospects of offering the local community a useable facility. How many "local" people will actually use an evangelical church and how many of the congregation will come from a distance outside of the area?

As for the row that appers to be erupting above about tantrums etc.

GET A GRIP THE PAIR OF YOU OR THE REST OF THE FORUMITES MAY BANG YOUR CYBER HEADS TOGETHER. I THOUGHT YOU WERE FREINDS ON HERE ON THE WHOLE!!

hugs

[louisiana]

iaineasy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

how

> much council tax etc do they pay? I am no expert

> on these things but I think its likely to be very

> little.

They pay a maximum 20% of business rates, minimum of 0%. Most pay the minimum i.e. nothing.

There's the same discount on water too I understand: i.e. 80% discount.

Mr Louisiana is so impressed with the tax benefits of charitable status (which are legion!) that he is seriously considering setting up his own religious charity. He's even found a suitable god (one that will be of particular interest to computer geeks :) ).

[iaineasy]

Mr Louisiana is so impressed with the tax benefits of charitable status (which are legion!) that he is seriously considering setting up his own religious charity. He's even found a suitable god (one that will be of particular interest to computer geeks smiling smiley ).

--------------------------------------------------------

bill gates is already a charity no??

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Just to set the record straight, CofE are not allowed to be charities.

[iaineasy]

Just to set the record straight, CofE are not allowed to be charities.

----------------------------

Will it be CofE, or Our church in kingdom heaven of the Divine Right Handed Left Footed All Seeing One nostrilled Omnipotent Super Christ?:)

Because I think they are!

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

What the fuck are you on about, Iaineasy?

[Mick Mac]

I said it before PGC - he ianeasy to get on with.

[iaineasy]

Will it be CofE, or Our church in kingdom heaven of the Divine Right Handed Left Footed All Seeing One nostrilled Omnipotent Super Christ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

That didn't seem to me to be a particularly mentally challenging joke, but if you don't get it PGC perhaps we should start with knock knock jokes?? haha

[louisiana]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Just to set the record straight, CofE are not

> allowed to be charities.

Uh, the Church of England is an exempt institution/exempt charity. And its component parts too.

That means

a) it has full charitable status, gets all the benefits, just like any other charity

and

b) it cannot register with the Charity Commissioners (but would it want to? It's just more work).

The same applies to quite a few churches, plus housing associations, plus universities etc etc.