Crystal Palace cinema campaign - send objections to church use now

[louisiana]

The change of use application for the art deco cinema in Crystal Palace Triangle (Church Road) is now with the council, and you have until 1 October to send in your views.

If you care about keeping the cinema in Crystal Palace as a cinema - and don't forget, Cityscreen would like to open a Ritzy-style cinema there - please make your views known to Bromley Council. The application is to turn it into a church.

Anyone can send in their views - it doesn't matter that you don't live in London Borough of Bromley.

The planning application documents are here:

http://212.85.26.243/WAM/pas/externalCasefile.do?councilName=LondonBoroughofBromley&appNumber=09/02202/FULL1

Guidance on making an objection here:

http://www.campaign.picture-palace.org/?p=810#more-810

and sample letters here:

http://www.campaign.picture-palace.org/?page_id=24

(But it's better to draft your own if you can.)

The pro-cinema campaign now has added celebrity sparkle, as Spike Jonze has come out in support - there's even a picture of him sporting the campaign tee-shirt - as have VV Brown and Pixie Lott.

http://www.campaign.picture-palace.org/?p=735

Plenty more discussion on Virtual Norwood, and all kinds of info and guidance on the Picture Palace campaign website.

http://www.campaign.picture-palace.org/

[Keef]

I'd like a cinema, but I just believe that most of the people against this application are against it more because they don't want a church there, than the fact they'd be regular visitors to the cinema. For that reason, I hope the church wins.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Interesting logic. So if it was a choice between a cinema and a tannery and you believed most people were objecting to a tannery you woul vote for a tannery?

There is a church mere yards away already. There is no cineman. Why a need for another church?

You might "just believe" but one doesn't have to be anti-religious to favour the cinema surely?

[woofmarkthedog]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> Interesting logic. So if it was a choice between a

> cinema and a tannery and you believed most people

> were objecting to a tannery you woul vote for a

> tannery?

>

> There is a church mere yards away already. There

> is no cineman. Why a need for another church?

>

> You might "just believe" but one doesn't have to

> be anti-religious to favour the cinema surely?

------------------------------------------------------------

Sean

I belly laughed when I read your reply, I agree with you but how did the Tannery vs Church idea pop into your head.

Now I'm hard pushed "Cinema vs Tannery" I really can't make up my mind !

W**F

[Bizzy]

Interesting logic. Logic which I understand.

You just need to look at the comments on that campaign to see it's the evangelical Church and associated congregation issues which is being used as a catalyst to draw people into objecting.

I'm still trying to figure out whether the negativity is solely for this Church and if it were any Church, would the reaction be the same?

One doesn't need to be anti-religious to object. I would imagine there are Christians objecting to this plan - maybe with good reason or misrepresented facts.

[Keef]

Sean if it was a tannery I suspect people wouldn't be against it in quite such a passionate way, that was what I meant, and I suspect you know that. Besides, one could live next door to Thomas Moore and not go there because they're not catholic. Who cares if there is a church next door. Like I say, if the cinema happens, I'll use it, as it's a 20 minute wall from my house. However, I question people's reasons for not wanting it to be a church, and would suggest it's not because they're big film lovers.

[Keef]

Is tannery actually a word by the way?

[SeanMacGabhann]

I lived next door to a tannery in cork so I hope so!!

As for the denomination of the church I think it does matter. As evangelical churches continue to split and multiply because they can't all agree on quite how much they hate sex and homosexuals, must we provide a space for every man-jack last one of them??

A lot o mainstream Christians have problems with th teachings of many evangelical churches so it's not just us damned unbelievers

[louisiana]

As you say Sean, there are already seven or eight regular churches in the immediate area, plus of course there are in addition the churches that operate services more informally out of other premises in the locality, such as at the Queen's Hotel in the same road.

*If* people have a problem with the church at all - and most just say they want just one cinema kept as a cinema, they want an *independent* cinema, and they already have umpteen churches in the neighbourhood - I would suggest this is not because it is a church per se, but because of the particular *type* of organisation it is, business-wise.

In the US, prosperity gospel churches are also known as 'gospel of greed' (amongst other not very complimentary terms), and have a fairly poor reputation amongst even evangelical churches. I think the private jets and $23,000 toilet

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/42538

and $16,000 dog don't really help the case. Most of the prosperity gospel pastors being investigated by the Senate Finance Committee still refuse to hand over any financial information to the Senators, almost two years on.

But on a positive note: in the UK, the Charity Commission has recently specifically stated - as part of its Public Benefit material - that purchasing private jets for church staff and preachers is not viewed as an appropriate way to spend charity money here. Which I think is a step in the right direction.

[louisiana]

Keef Wrote:

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> Sean if it was a tannery I suspect people wouldn't

> be against it in quite such a passionate way,

Keef, tanneries produce fairly noxious substances. I wouldn't *want* to live next to one (just as I'd rather not live next to a car-spray workshop, which I have done).

[Keef]

  Quote

A lot o mainstream Christians have problems with th teachings of many evangelical churches so it's not just us damned unbelievers

I know that, and so do I, but I still stand by my point that is is a church that people are against, rather than being for a cinema.

I thought a tannery was a tanning palour though, so shows what I know.

[louisiana]

Keef, if there already eight churches and rising within a stone's throw, and the only building that can ever be a cinema in this zone, which *is* an art deco cinema already, and not a church, is about to become another church...

If this was some multiplex, I for one would definitely not be in favour. I was not in favour of the previous Park multiplex proposal at all. I am only convinced because of the style of cinema proposed, which I think is a significant community contribution, and the building involved, which is an art deco cinema, in good nick to boot. A Ritzy-style cinema would do so much for that area, make it much more of a destination for all in the neighbourhood, and would work well for local traders (and I confess an interest here, I do know one of the local traders who would benefit).

So for me it's not just any cinema. And it's not just any church. And the imbalance in numbers is also there, in spades.

And it makes me sad that all the local authorities converging on this site just don't give a fig about something that is right on the edge of their radars (due to an accident of local administration). And it makes me happy that there are people who are concerned about their neighbourhood and want to improve it for all.

[bigbadwolf]

Apart from what a Tannery is or isn't, can I just wade in and shout my say...

I personally don't really care if either a church or a cinema is built in Crystal Palace. What I would like to say though, is that I hope this thread doesn't become a poisonous slanging match between people that claim to be committed to the cause where in actual fact have simply filled out an online petition.

My mum got heavily involved in the campaign to keep a swimming pool in Forest Hill and went to great lengths to make people aware of their options and rights regarding the said development. The majority, when door stepped, said that they had a great deal of interest in the pools and would get behind the struggle to maintain the presence of the facilities.

When it actually came down to attending the meetings with councillors and local representitives they always found some excuse not to attend or make themselves heard leaving my mum to do all the hard work. Some even had the temerity to voice their concern over her actions on se23.com even though they'd not made any effort themselves.

Basically, it's all very good saying that you want to be involved on the forum but it's another thing altogether getting involved in the actual proceedings themselves, such as attending meetings and making sure you're prepared to go head to head with your opposition.

Best of luck to those that that do the above.

[Keef]

Oh I see, so you just want it to be a posh cinema. I get it now.

[James]

Right, I'm going to start a petition to turn it into a tannery. Who's with me?

[louisiana]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I lived next door to a tannery in cork so I hope

> so!!

>

> As for the denomination of the church I think it

> does matter. As evangelical churches continue to

> split and multiply because they can't all agree on

> quite how much they hate sex and homosexuals,

Or how much they love money?

must

> we provide a space for every man-jack last one of

> them??

>

> A lot o mainstream Christians have problems with

> th teachings of many evangelical churches so it's

> not just us damned unbelievers

One of the prosperity gospel outfits was effectively chucked out by the UK Evangelical Alliance (Morris Cerullo World Evangelism).

"Members of the Evangelical Alliance council were alarmed by his fundraising methods, particularly when he allegedly linked the level of donors? contributions to his own ministry with the extent of God?s blessing on the donors? lives. The concern was about ?the suggestion of so automatic an equation between material offering and divine favour?."

[Keef]

  Quote

(and I confess an interest here, I do know one of the local traders who would benefit).

You run the Morley's Chicken?

[bigbadwolf]

Keef, as per usual, your quality of argument has descended into that of a temper tantrum I'd expect from a toddler. Get a grip, you're making yourself look stupid.

[Keef]

Did I just read that from you BBW? The Morley's chicken comment was hardly a serious point, but yes you're right, I do get wound up about this type of thing, and I'm not even a christian, and I don't think I'll go to Heaven when I die.

[bigbadwolf]

Yes you did just read that from me. Apart from my usual dickheadedry, you can on ocassion, see my serious side and I'm more than capable of holding my own in serious conversation.

[Keef]

As am I, and I take exception of you suggesting that my "usual quality of arguement" is similar to a toddler's temper tantrum. I'd be interested to see you back that up. I've gotten angry once or twice on here, usually because I feel that a group of people need defending.

I don't know what your agenda is here, but I think you're out of order.

[bigbadwolf]

I don't really have time to start trawling up the threads where you've started kicking and screaming, although on reflection it did seem a tad unfair. You just seem to get pretty irate when others present a better case than:

"Oh I see, so you just want it to be a posh cinema. I get it now."

Which is unnecesarily sarcastic and unproductive, even though I've done the same in the past.

[Keef]

Yes it was sarcy, but the fact that Louisiana admits that if it was a multiplex (bit more chavvy maybe?) cinema, she'd be against it, which to me is very odd. I still don't see any kicking and screaming.

If you look back at what I have written in this thread, I have tried to make points, and I don't think anyone has particularly made "better" ones, they simply don't agree with mine, which is fine.

Frankly though, I have never been patronising to you, or (unlike many) mentioned your age or anything like that, so the fact you then come on here, and jump in patronising me, when I am actually trying raise as point I believe in, is bloody rude!

[louisiana]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As am I, and I take exception of you suggesting

> that my "usual quality of arguement" is similar to

> a toddler's temper tantrum. I'd be interested to

> see you back that up. I've gotten angry once or

> twice on here, usually because I feel that a group

> of people need defending.

If a group of people need defending, I'd tend to defend the L&G community in CP, rather than a pastor and church that actively supports discrimination against the L&G community, and protests to the government about being forced to treat people equally. (Where's the charity there, eh?)

[Mick Mac]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'd like a cinema, but I just believe that most of

> the people against this application are against it

> more because they don't want a church there, than

> the fact they'd be regular visitors to the cinema.

> For that reason, I hope the church wins.

Keef - I am one of the people who wants it to fail because its a church. The reason for this is that churches have money from donations, they build a church to have a presence in a society whether there is a real demand for that church or not. They do not have to have significant attendees to survive as the wider based church donations pay for its upkeep.

The cinema is a business - if there is no demand it will fail. But it is likely to be of use to more people in society.

The church will lie empty 95% of the week and contribute little to society, but take up a prime space.

We don't need more churches, demand for them is falling dramatically.

Its not a case of people objecting just because its a church, there is usually some logic, and a more attractive alternative is being offered.