New opportunity to save the woods!! Deadline Friday 23rd

[DaveR]

"...we are trying to save the world"

Words that strike fear into the heart of any sensible person, especially when coming from someone older than twenty five.

[taper]

I rest my case.

[Otta]

edborders Wrote:

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> If you only want to save the 12 acres of woods,

> form a group "Save The Woods of Camberwell Old and

> New Cemeteries" and I will support you as far as

> that goes. But we are trying to save the world.

So why are you not called "Save the world"? At least the world exists.

[nxjen]

henryb Wrote:

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> > Not to overlook for some "I want my house to

> > continue to overlook a wooded area rather than

> a

> > cemetery with the traffic this entails - so

> much

> > better for property prices."

>

> What wooded area? I thought the woods didn't exist

> - why would anyone pay more for a house that was

> near some "worthless scrub land" or a "toxic dump"

> as one Labour Councillor called it? Surely your

> whole argument is it is really important for

> people to be near a cemetery so they can bury

> their loved ones? If that was the case wouldn't

> they value that more highly?

A "wooded area" is not the same as "woods". Some have wooded areas in their gardens but would not refer to them as woods unless they're deluded.

[Penguin68]

Some have wooded areas in their gardens but would not refer to them as woods unless they're deluded.

Or the Duke of Marlborough

[dbboy]

You continue to spout and make mis leading, ridiculous, scaremongering statements such as "They want to dig up or mound over EVERY grave in BOTH cemeteries. Even graves that were sold in perpetuity. Every poor persons' grave. And every beautfiful monument to be removed and dumped. Every memory covered over to create fresh earth to sell off. This will be Leader Peter John's gift to London: London's Graveyard. Do you have family buried there? Say goodbye to them again. That is their strategy and it is unprecedented. The LARGEST MASS EXCAVATION in UK HISTORY".

The only thing you said so far that is TRUE is "Only they became wild through neglect"

On 6/10/15 the council made the decision and in doing so dismissed your arguments. It's over, the work is to begin.

Your "you don't give a damn" rant yesterday although very amusing, but not comedic, reminded me of Donald "The Duck" Trump.

[nxjen]

I should like to put on record that despite a rumour that is said to be going around I do not work for Southwark Council and have no vested interest. Has anyone else received a PM suggesting they too work for the council?

[edborders]

This is the truth:

June 2012 Southwark's Cemetery Strategy ?prioritises the re-use and reclamation of public and private graves?. That means every grave over 75 years old is on the books to be eventually dug up or covered over, headstone and memorials obliterated. If you have family in the cemeteries they will be dug up. [and to get to those graves, they will be cutting down hundreds of trees].

And Leader Peter John was on the BBC Radio in Jan or Feb saying Southwark would provide burial space for other boroughs - he made it a London issue because, at that time, he had greater career plans. He wants to make the cemeteries London's Graveyards.

And it is true that their plan is the LARGEST MASS EXCAVATION in UK HISTORY" - hundreds of thousands of graves dug up or buried over. Can you think of a bigger mass excavation?

If you have family buried there, or if you like the woods there, go visit, soon.

Lewis Schaffer

Non-political, Nunheader, former East Dulwich Resident, American

[Penguin68]

As my Katie Hopkins reference was apparently lost in translation, perhaps suggesting that this is Donald Trump/ Sarah Palin style campaigning may get better recognition.

[dbboy]

I think the Trump/Palin republican campaign would benefit from his buffoonery campaigning approach.

[kiera]

taper Wrote-------------------------

> Problem with this whole debate is I'm still not

> entirely sure whether the wood in Camberwell Old

> Cemetery (on the northern and north eastern side)

> are genuinely under threat. I think the failure

> of the campaign, on top of the hyperbole, is to

> spread their goals too wide. Plus resorting to ad

> hominem against Southwark's political leadership

> has been a big mistake as they are the people that

> need to be persuaded to modify or clarify their

> plans.

>

> I like Lewis and his group a lot and admire their

> passion and energy. But I think they need now to

> re-assess the scope and tone of the campaign and

> focus on that which is really worth preserving,

> maintaining and improving. And they need to work

> with Southwark to come up with a plan that manages

> and preserves the woods in COC for the future.

The woods ARE under threat because Southwark plans, in a few years' time, to prepare that area for new lawn grave burials.

Some local residents have been trying to bring forward the re-use of 75+ year old graves in order to persuade the council that they will still be able to accommodate current burial demand - about 220pa - without needing to use the woods. Save Southwark Woods is well aware that representatives of local residents are already working with the council on this.

[edborders]

Who, exactly, are the people who want to dig up the graves of local people?

Kiera, you, that other guy. Who else?

Who supports digging up the dead and selling off the plots off when there is new ground available a few miles away?

Who else out there will stand up for digging people's Grans out the ground - whose families were promised their Gran would RIP forever? Tell me.

And tell me how the council can bring forward plans to dig up graves and sell them off so they don't have to cut down the trees right now. The council needs land within 18 months and reuse will take longer than that. The council should have brought these plans forward when they said they wanted the rec ground. They knew what the demand was.

Solution: The council can buy property outside the borough if they want to subsidisze burials.

Lewis Schaffer

Right-handed, work-avoider,

kiera Wrote:

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> taper Wrote-------------------------

>

> The woods ARE under threat because Southwark

> plans, in a few years' time, to prepare that area

> for new lawn grave burials.

> Some local residents have been trying to bring

> forward the re-use of 75+ year old graves in order

> to persuade the council that they will still be

> able to accommodate current burial demand - about

> 220pa - without needing to use the woods. Save

> Southwark Woods is well aware that representatives

> of local residents are already working with the

> council on this.

[dbboy]

hey Donald, now spouting even more vitriolic, emotionally wrenching clap trap.

"Who else out there will stand up for digging people's Grans out the ground - whose families were promised their Gran would RIP forever? Tell me."

[kiera]

It isn't something anyone wants, I shouldn't think, but it's a compromise and doesn't seem to me to be any more disrespectful to the monuments of the long dead than your vision of leaving the cemeteries unmanaged and letting trees root all over the graves. Some local people acknowledge that the council is going to continue using the cemeteries as cemeteries, but want to preserve the wildlife and trees, so are looking for ways to achieve this. It's a compromise - trying to steer the council into leaving the woodland and start re-using old graves in the maintained area, earlier than they had planned to do.

[HopOne]

Hey dbboy, that is offensive and makes me wonder if you have any "comprehension or understanding of culture in the UK". If you said that straight to someone's face, think how others in this country would think of you.

Rather than criticise how another phrases things, why not focus on the issue and explain what you think is inaccurate about what edborders has said? Southwark council's plans may not bother you and you are at liberty to say so. You can be emotive or not as you like, just be nice please.

[dbboy]

duly edited.

Donald and Co ALSO need to appreciate some of the things they say are highly offensive and mis leading, two examples of what I mean;

"you don't give a damn about the future (global warming, flooding, rotting dead juices flowing down Forest Hill Road)"

Who, exactly, are the people who want to dig up the graves of local people?

"Who else out there will stand up for digging people's Grans out the ground - whose families were promised their Gran would RIP forever? Tell me."

As much as things are explained to Donald, the scrubland crew continue to ignore this, and which the Council disregarded and ruled against on 6th October. This continues to perpetuate the scrubland campaign, irrespective of anything else .

[Otta]

Also why would someone so sensitive and worried about people's dead grans then use the sort of language "rotting dead juices". I'm pretty sure that would be upsetting to anyone who's gran was buried there (not that I think there are any people left with grans buried there).

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

My great grandfather is buried there. But it was in a paupers' grave and has already been 'upcycled'. All I have is the plot number. I don't have a problem with reusing grave sites.

[edborders]

Sorry. We missed this entirely. Southwark Council filed on Christmas Eve December 24, 2016 applications for tree cutting and road works on One Tree Hill and for the other works in Camberwell Old Cemetery. Christmas Eve. Probably 5PM! They didn't tell their stakeholders group. Will find and post more tomorrow. We have been in the New Cemetery since the then and we didnt see a notice. We actually stared at the notice board and asked for a copy of another notice.

[edborders]

NEWS: Southwark Council filed new planning applications on Christmas Eve, December 24th for works in the cemeterires - Cutting down trees on One Tree Hill and for cutting 2 acres of woods in Camberwell Old and mounding over 48,000 graves. We just found out about it yesterday. No notice on cemetery gates, "stakeholders" not notified, no notice in Southwark News. The consultation period was to February 1 now it appears that the consultation period has expired. We are figuring out what is going on. If anyone knows something, please post it or email me.

>>

And to answer Kiera's concern as to which is more "disrespectful": The Council's plan is to dig up the grave and throw away the headstone and other memorials. Our plan is to leave untended graves and headstones alone and to let the area return to the beauty of nature.

kiera Wrote:

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> It isn't something anyone wants, I shouldn't

> think, but it's a compromise and doesn't seem to

> me to be any more disrespectful to the monuments

> of the long dead than your vision of leaving the

> cemeteries unmanaged and letting trees root all

> over the graves.

[Sue]

edborders Wrote:

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> NEWS: Southwark Council filed new planning

> applications on Christmas Eve, December 24th for

> works in the cemeterires - Cutting down trees on

> One Tree Hill and for cutting 2 acres of woods in

> Camberwell Old and mounding over 48,000 graves. We

> just found out about it yesterday. No notice on

> cemetery gates, "stakeholders" not notified, no

> notice in Southwark News. The consultation period

> was to February 1 now it appears that the

> consultation period has expired. We are figuring

> out what is going on. If anyone knows something,

> please post it or email me.

>

Surely you must have a contact in the relevant council department who can tell you directly what is going on?

Presumably you have not been running your campaign all this time without first speaking to people in the council about their plans?

[Otta]

edborders Wrote:

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> Our plan is to leave untended graves

> and headstones alone and to let the area return to

> the beauty of nature.

You mean let them go to ruin. Because no one living actually has any connection to those graves. That's right isn't it?

[edborders]

Thank you, Sue, for reminding us that we could call them. The council hasn't been returning our emails for so long we stopped calling anyone there. The Council, including our own councillors Vicki Mills and Gavin Edwards, have been at war with us, their own residents.

Just now we called the officer in charge who told us that the plans didn't need to go in front of the planning committee, that he was approving the plans that he applied for. And that it was a done deal. We believe the Church has to agree but once they do, trees will be cut down on One Tree Hill and woods cut down and graves mounded over in Camberwell Old Cemetery.

Otta -

We want the abandoned graves to be left to go back to nature, like the beautiful bits of Nunhead Cemetery. We can see wildflower meadows and trees growing tall among the graves. If the graves are dug up by the council and new headstones put up, not only will the heritage be lost but the area won't be allowed to return to nature for another 75 years.

Otta Wrote:>

> You mean let them go to ruin. Because no one

> living actually has any connection to those

> graves. That's right isn't it?

Lewis Schaffer

Migrant, Nunhead resident and plonker

[Sue]

edborders Wrote:

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> Thank you, Sue, for reminding us that we could

> call them. The council hasn't been returning our

> emails for so long we stopped calling anyone

> there. The Council, including our own councillors

> Vicki Mills and Gavin Edwards, have been at war

> with us, their own residents.

Well unfortunately, that's what happens when you take the sort of attitude and use the kinds of methods displayed on your posts on this forum.

It's never a great idea to antagonise the people who will be making the decisions.

[edborders]

There was no way to have NOT antagonised the Council.

We have put bricks on the road for Southwark Council (and one political party in particular). It was easy for them to cut down a row of hawthorns, destroy a lovely meadow and mound over graves on the Woodvale side of Camberwell Old Cemetery in 2012. So easy.

This next bit has gotten a whole lot harder for them. They don't like residents telling them they cannot do something.

Save Southwark Woods is part of a much bigger conversation about changing the whole thinking around cemeteries, woods, graves and green space, climate change and health and history and beauty. And new ideas (not so new to some) are going to antagonise people.

Within a month, most likely, trees on One Tree Hill are going to cut down and the hill scarred for a long time. Two acres of woods cut down and 48,000 graves mounded over and leased off in Camberwell Old [corrected] Cemetery - as ugly as the Woodvale side. And plans are in place for every grave in both cemeteries to be dug up and leased off.

If this kind of talk antagonises you and makes you made at Lewis Schaffer, then you should have to look at yourself.

Here is a lovely video of Camberwell Old Cemetery.

Sue:

>

> Well unfortunately, that's what happens when you

> take the sort of attitude and use the kinds of

> methods displayed on your posts on this forum.

>

> It's never a great idea to antagonise the people

> who will be making the decisions.

Lewis Schaffer

Save Southwark Woods Campaign, Nunheader, Divorcee, Peckham Rye Ward

that is who I am, who are you?