New opportunity to save the woods!! Deadline Friday 23rd

[Sue]

If edborders/Lewis hasn't misrepresented the situation then I apologise for saying that he has.

[edborders]

Thank you Sue. I am sorry if I have come across as something of a hothead or some outsider who is telling local people how their area should be or someone who wants to take away their cemetery

The Council wants to change the cemeteries,

They are digging up or mounding over the graves of tens of thousands of poor people in the northern side of the Old Cemetery - they don't need permission to do that because they are public graves) See the mounding over of graves on the Woodvale side? That is their plan, and when they are done mounding they are going be digging up graves and disposing the headstones.

It will be a car park of burials with the nature and the beauty gone. They are saying "It is not 12 acres". Well, not today - but it will be that in a few short years.

Sorry, sorry, sorry.

Please tell the Council to leave the dead alone. Leave the headstones alone. Leave the trees alone.

Videos here: http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

Lewis Schaffer

Outside who likes headstones and graves and woods in cemeteries.

If it weren't why aren't Victoria Mills or Peter John or Gavin Edwards or Darren Merrill or someone coming onto this forum? Or Harriet Harman or Helen Hayes...

[Sue]

edborders Wrote:

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> If it weren't why aren't Victoria Mills or Peter

> John or Gavin Edwards or Darren Merrill or someone

> coming onto this forum? Or Harriet Harman or Helen

> Hayes...

Erm, probably because they have seen the nature of your posts on here and don't want to bang their heads against a brick wall over and over again either?

And where does your "tens of thousands" come from?

[edborders]

We have been told that 48,000 of working people's graves on the Area Z site alone. 220,000 to 300,000 in entire Old Cemetery.

The Council is digging up or mounding over the poor because they don't need permission from families to go ahead.

The poor don't have headstones (or smaller Headstones, many just thrown aside.) It looks like a meadow but there are no vacant land. Where there is no headstone there are poor people buried.

After they are done with Area Z, they will do the the other areas where poor people are buried. That is, in the neigbhouring lanes J,K, L, and H and others.

If your ancestors had a private grave and you want to keep your relative in the ground, the council will ask you to pay. That sounds like extortion.

Lewis Schaffer

Nunhead, annoying New Yorker

How many of the dead were buried in flu epidemic of 1918?

[Loz]

edborders Wrote:

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> We have been told that 48,000 of working people's

> graves on the Area Z site alone. 220,000 to

> 300,000 in entire Old Cemetery.

>

> The Council is digging up or mounding over the

> poor because they don't need permission from

> families to go ahead.

Having just skimmed through the report, reuse of grave sites is not in the short term plan (i.e. up to 2022). So all this talk of reuse and mounding over is not applicable for about a decade.

[edborders]

First the council mounds over graves of poor local people,

then they bury bodies on top of these other bodies.

When they are done with the poor people's graves

they will dig up the private graves.

We have found that 2022 isn't as far away as it seems.

Will the council be telling families their loved ones are being laid to rest above the remains of other people? Are people being sold a used pair of shoes as new?

Lewis Schaffer

see the video http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

[Loz]

Maybe, but we can stop talking about 're-use' and 'mounding over' in terms of the current work as it is utterly irrelevant.

[edborders]

What have I got wrong:

The plan is to cut down the woods in the 12 acres and mound over the public graves. {that is, poor people)

Then the Council will sell the plots to unsuspecting families

who won't have been told they are burying their loved ones over other families' dead.

And probably won't understand that they don't have the grave in perpetuity -

only 50 years (or 100 years for only another ?1350

Then when they have used up all the poor's land the Council goes after the private graves, which surround the poor people's plots.

12 acres of woods for 5 years of burial. A wood and heritage and other people's family memories for five years of burial.

The Council will give the family of the private grave six months notice - posted on the cemetery gates -

If the family actually receives the notice, the council will offer them terms to keep them buried.

"Pay up or you kin get dug up. ?1350 for 50 years please." [actually, not sure how the Council will do this.]

and then the council digs the person out of the ground, then digs the hole deeper,

then gently and respectfully dumps the remains back in the hole, [sorry, "transfers"]

and places a new body on top.

Sold off - sorry, leased off - to some unsuspecting family -

- probably an immigrant family, which Southwark Labour says it cares so deeply about -

an immigrant family unfamiliar with 50 year leases and being buried on top of other families' dead.

What am I not getting here?

Southwark Council is reusing Cemetery Land and selling it off a new.

This is what our local Labour councillors have agreed is the right thing. Only Labour supports this. That include the Job-share on Double Wages couple Councillors Victor Mills and her husband Gavin Edwards. They totally support this and don't see how this bad is for local people.

Southwark Council is hurting local people.

Lewis Schaffer

Sickened at what is happening and so should you be

[Loz]

Ok, here's where you have it wrong:

> The plan is to cut down the woods in the 12 acres and mound over the public graves.

Wrong - the plan is to cut some of the trees and plant some more. Not to 'cut down the woods'. Mounding over the public graves is not in the plan up to 2022.

> And probably won't understand that they don't have the grave in perpetuity. Only 50 years (or 100 for only another ?1350

You don't know that they won't be told - that's just speculation. And besides, current burial law in the United Kingdom stipulates that graves of all types cannot be sold for more than 100 years anywhere. This also applies in your chosen 'alternative', Kemnal Park Cemetery. They offer leases for as little as 25 years and a maximum of 100.

> And then the council digs the person out of the ground, digs the hole deeper, then gentle and respectfully

> dump the remains back in the hole, and place a new body on top.

A very over-emotional way of describing what will happen from now on in most cemeteries in any part of the UK.

> Sold off - sorry, leased off - to some unsuspecting family - - probably an immigrant family, which

> Southwark Labour says it cares so deeply about - an immigrant family unfamiliar with 50 year leases

> and being buried on top of the dead.

OK, this is just racist.

> What am not getting here? Southwark Council is reusing Cemetery Land and selling it off a new.

What you aren't getting is that this is happening across the UK. It is now standard procedure. Southwark will be no different to anywhere else. Any of your burial alternatives will be just the same. You are railing against Southwark for doing what just about every council has to do now that burial spaces are almost all full.

[dbboy]

What have I got wrong: EVERYTHING

The plan is to cut down the woods in the 12 acres and mound over the public graves. WELL ITS NOT, AS HAS PREVIOUSLY BEEN PROVEN

Then the Council will sell the plots to unsuspecting families - NOT UNSUSPECTONG, THE GRAVE IS LEASED FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS TO THE FAMILY, THAT IS USUAL PRACTICE

who won't have been told they are burying their loved ones over other families dead. DID YOU ASK THE FAMILIES WHO HAVE PLOTS ALONGSIDE WOODVALE, THEY ARE PROBABLY GRATEFUL THEY DO NOT HAVE TO TRAVEL TO BEXLEY (DO YOU KNOW WHERE BEXLEY IS?)

And probably won't understand that they don't have the grave in perpetuity.

Only 50 years (or 100 for only another ?1350 THE COUNCIL ISSUE DOCUMENTATION THAT CLEARLY SPECIFIES THE TERMS AND COSTS.

Then the Council goes after the private graves, which surround the poor people's plots.12 acres of woods for 5 years of burial. AGAIN MORE NONSENSE

A wood and heritage and other people's families for five years of burial. IT IS NOT A WOOD, IT IS SERIOUSLY OVERGROWN SCRUB LAND- HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU HAVE TO BE TOLD, OH YOU "DON'T LIKE CHANGE UNLESS IT IS CHANGE YOU AGREE WITH". YOU ACTUALLY SAID THAT ON ONE OF YOUR MANY VIDEOS PLUS SOME OTHER REVOLTING REMARKS.

The Council will give the family of the private grave six months notice - posted on a cemetery gate - YES AND THEY ARE ADDITIONALLY CONTACTED BY THE COUNCIL, AGAIN ALL STANDARD PRACTICE.

If the family actually receives the notice, the council will offer them terms to keep them buried.

"Pay or you kin get dug up" DO YOU CONTINUALLY NEED TO USE SUCH EXPLICIT LANGUAGE, CLEARLY YOU STILL HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING OF DECORUM, RESPECTABILITY, CORRECTNESS, ETIQUETTE OR RESTRAINT..

and then the council digs the person out of the ground, digs the hole deeper, NO THEY DO NOT AND MORE UNACCEPTABLE LANGUAGE

then gentle and respectfully dump the remains back in the hole, WRONG

and place a new body on top. REMAINS ARE NOT DUMPED IN A HOLE, IT IS RETURNED BACK INTO THE GRAVE, PLUS HEADSTONES WILL NOT BE TOSSED ASIDE.

Sold off - sorry, leased off - to some unsuspecting family - YES THAT IS THE WAY IT WORKS, THE FAMILIES WHO HAVE HAD BURIALS ALONG WOODVALE ARE PROBABLY APPRECIATIVE THEY CAN BURY THEIR DECEASED LOCALLY

- probably an immigrant family, which Southwark Labour says it cares so deeply about -

an immigrant family unfamiliar with 50 year leases and being buried on top of the dead. THAT IS SUCH A LOW COMMENT AND SHOWS YOUR CONTINUED IGNORANCE AND DISRESPECT FOR THE GRACIOUSLY DECEASED.

What am not getting here? EVERYTHING

Southwark Council is reusing Cemetery Land and selling it off a new. AS IT HAS DONE AS THE CEMETERY REACHES CAPACITY

This is what our local Labour councillors have agreed is the right thing. Only Labour supports this. That include the Job-share on Double Wages couple Councillors Victor Mills and her husband Gavin Edwards. They totally support this and don't see how this bad for local people. I BELIEVE YOU ARE ON VERY UNSTEADY GROUND HERE SAYING SUCH THINGS ABOUT COUNCILLORS WHO MAY NOT KNOW YOU ARE SAYING THESE THINGS ABOUT THEM AND UNTIL THEY DO SO, HAVE NO RIGHT TO REPLY.

Southwark Council is hurting local people. NO IT IS NOT

YOU HAVE STATED YOU DO NOT LIKE CHANGE UNLESS IT IS CHANGE YOU AGREE WITH - WELL GUESS WHAT, NOTHING STAYS THE SAME, CLEARLY YOU HAVE A CHOICE ACCEPT CHANGE OR JOG ON.

[edborders]

Thanks for reading all that and for acknowledging that Southwark will be cutting trees, excavating graves, mounding over poor people's graves, burying people over the top of other families' bodies, and the fact that families may or may not be told there will be bodies under their loved loses.

Southwark has a large immigrant population - of which, I am one. Many chose burial and have the right to be told if the burial plot which they have leased, is on virgin ground or on top of other people's bodies.

Lewis Schaffer

Immigrant

[Loz]

Lewis,

You are avoiding the point - that just about every cemetery in the UK (including your preferred alternative at Kemnal Park) will have the same conditions. There is nothing special about Southwark's plans.

But you don't care about other cemeteries, do you? This sudden 'concern' about graves is just desperately grasping for something - anything - to beat Southwark up with.

It's rather disingenuous, to say the least.

[Rolo Tomasi]

Lewis, at Cornell University they have an incredible piece of scientific equipment known as the Tunneling Electron Microscope. Now, this microscope is so powerful that by firing electrons you can actually see images of the atom, the infinitesimally minute building blocks of our universe. Lewis, if I were using that microscope right now, I still wouldn't be able to locate my interest in your problem.

?️Frasier

[edborders]

Is this only about language? Please tell me the polite way of talking about this horror. People thought I was rude when I was in New York, too!

The Council is spending millions to cut down acres of woods, scrape clean the ground to make it look like fresh, virgin field, this, the final resting place of tens of thousands of local people. Could I say that better?

Then the Council will lease off the new "field" for rows up on rows of graves sold to people who may think they are going to be there forever and probably haven't been told they are above the bodies of the dead. Is that okay to say?

And then when the wood is cut down and all the public graves (ie mostly poor people who didn't get their own plot), they will go after the private graves (ie richer people back then) and dig them up too and put their remains them lower down in the earth and put another body on top of them. What about that? Is that decorous enough?

video at http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

Tell me a nice way of putting it.

Lewis Schaffer

Save Southwark Woods

07886504221 That is my phone number, Call me.

[Otta]

Why would anyone even remotely care about a load of old bones?

[nxjen]

Lewis - you have told us this repeatedly ad nauseum, saying it over and over again isn't going to gain you any support, in fact the opposite. Your language has been a problem, certainly as far as I'm concerned. And so much of this is just dramatic conjecture on your part e.g. "rows of graves sold to people who may think they are going to be there forever and probably haven't been told they are above the bodies of the dead." How can you say this with any degree of certainty, as has already been pointed out, the "length of tenure" is clearly stated in the paperwork Southwark Council provides. Those who have responded regarding these claims aren't in fact bothered by what you are trying to persuade us is so horrifying as we have to be practical and the situation is the same through out London. You remind me of a petulant kid stamping their foot and repeating what they want over and over again in the hope they'll get it.

[Jennys]

Well said nxjen.

[Penguin68]

It is also worth pointing out that there are very specific sets of laws which govern, in London (and peculiarly in Southwark) how cemeteries can be re-used. Burials less than 75 years cannot be interfered with, public burial areas can only be altered (as they are deemed to be on consecrated ground) following a Faculty from the relevant diocese, and this includes 'substantial alterations', (including e.g. new paths and tracks) as well as any dis-and re-interment of bones. Indeed private areas in consecrated ground are similarly impacted. The re-use of burial grounds is standard (with different rules) throughout Europe where there is pressure (as there is in towns) for burial space. Most people consider that proximity (how close your deceased loved-one is) beats permanence. For those who don't, they may chose to inter elsewhere. It is a matter of choice.

Most of the language and description of what Lewis believes is planned is either mistaken or is chosen to present in terms of horror what most people accept as reasonable. Burying bones deeper, but in the same position a minimum of 75 years after first interment is very unlikely to directly effect anyone who knew the deceased. Where that isn't true (for instance the death of a child) representations may be made and will, in all likelihood, be listened too.

Readers should remember that the original (and underlying) attempt of the pressure group was halt all future burials in the cemeteries and to allow them to become wildernesses (for walks and picnics, or am I mis-remembering that?)

He (or one of his supporters) references burials of the Spanish flu victims - my aunt (died 1918 aged 21) was one of those - who died in London (not Southwark). There is no one living who would remember her or would care if her bones were either mounded over or re-buried elsewhere (indeed, that may already have happened). So don't pray-in-aid these 'victims' please.

[dbboy]

What has happened about your proposed injunction?

[Dulwichmudlark]

Id worry about the constant stream of contaminated water flowing down forest hill road lets be honest your all worried about a few trees for the sake of makeing money out of the dead is the least of your worries id worry about the Formaldehyde and other compunds makeing its way down the road

[edhistory]

dulwichbeekeeper Wrote:

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> Id worry about the constant stream of contaminated

> water flowing down forest hill road lets be honest

> your all worried about a few trees for the sake of

> makeing money out of the dead is the least of your

> worries id worry about the Formaldehyde and other

> compunds makeing its way down the road

How does that work?

[dbboy]

I believe he maybe pulling your plonker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dulwichmudlark]

Well its clear to seethe water table at times in that plot of load can reach a few inches below the surfes so with out foing into to much detail just think soup

[edhistory]

SHORT NOTICE EMERGENCY PROTEST TO STOP THE CUTTING

WEDNESDAY 27 January 2016 -1PM

CAMBERWELL OLD CEMETERY GATE

Forest Hill Road, East Dulwich SE22 0RU

Corner of Woodvale.

Not in Camberwell or in Forest Hill but in East Dulwich.

> The Council is acting on their massive plan for Nunhead's Camberwell New Cemetery including cutting down trees on the side of One Tree Hill and the excavation and mounding over of old graves.

> Plan includes digging up or mounding over and removing headstones of every grave over 75 years old (that is, every grave). This will be the largest mass excavation and burial mounding program in UK history. Same for Camberwell Old Cemetery in East Dulwich

> Tuesday Meeting 7:30PM

> The Herne, East Dulwich

This is the meeting I was asking about.

Did it take place?

[edborders]

Vigil today 12-1. Camberwell Old Cemetery First Hill Road. Se22 0ru.

Fight the mounding over and digging up entire cemetery by Southwark

Http://www.savesouthwarkwoods.org.uk

Lewis Schaffer

Out of Breath