State secondary schools further afield - any advice?

[HannahSE23]

I've heard Kingsdale was a no-go zone back in the day too! As was Charter when it was William Penn. That's why it's worth remembering that times and schools change I guess...

[Scruffy Mummy]

I think that if you think the only school your child can go to is Charter or Kingsdale or Habs you won't be happy. But many of us look beyond the hype and have realised that there are a number of good schools that are not too far away - Deptford Green is not that much further than Haberdashers, St Thomas is even nearer. I was also not in favour of single sex schools before I looked around but a couple of the boys schools impressed me and I also now think that one of the benefits of boys schools are that they really know how to work with active and lively boys. Go see the schools before you dismiss them is my advice.

[hpsaucey]

Scruffy Mummy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think that if you think the only school your

> child can go to is Charter or Kingsdale or Habs

> you won't be happy. But many of us look beyond

> the hype and have realised that there are a number

> of good schools that are not too far away -

> Deptford Green is not that much further than

> Haberdashers, St Thomas is even nearer. I was

> also not in favour of single sex schools before I

> looked around but a couple of the boys schools

> impressed me and I also now think that one of the

> benefits of boys schools are that they really know

> how to work with active and lively boys. Go see

> the schools before you dismiss them is my advice.

Erm - if this is aimed at me (?) I have visited them and have commented elsewhere on how good I thought St Thomas's is. I also really liked Forest Hill Boys and am not averse to Harris Boys (have visited all of these - some twice). I'm just saying that my personal preference would be for co-ed.

Again personal preference but if I was in charge they would all be non-faith, co-ed schools...

Agree on the 'hype' especially re: Habs - just don't get what the fuss is about: hated it. Deptford Green and COLA much better, forward thinking, inclusive and friendly co-ed choices IMO.

In fact, the very heartening thing I thought was just how good all the ones I saw appear to be, and how lucky we are in London to have such good schools. I'd be frankly happy putting most of the local ones on the list.

HP

[Scruffy Mummy]

no it wasn't aimed at you!

[hpsaucey]

Scruffy Mummy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> no it wasn't aimed at you!

Doh - I'm obviously a bit 'jumpy' about the whole thing.

Apologies...

HP

[LondonMix]

That?s fair enough. I?m not sure how important it is to most parents in Southwark. There are lots of oversubscribed single sex schools. However, I guess if enough parents felt strongly about it, pressure could be brought to make more schools co-ed.

That notwithstanding though, I?m not sure I understand all the despair and anger further up thread (not directed at you HP). We are all quite lucky as far as state education goes in this area both at primary and secondary level.

hpsaucey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LondonMix Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Agree bornagain... All of Southwark's schools

> are

> > good and outstanding from memory.

> >

> > And for those who are stating they should

> rebel--

> > exactly what do you want to happen. For good

> > schools to be left empty because certain

> parents

> > don't like them despite most of them achieving

> > better than average national results for their

> > pupils.

>

> Personal opinion, as I realise that they are the

> preference of some, but might help if there

> weren't so many single sex ones around here ...

>

> HP

[hpsaucey]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> That?s fair enough. I?m not sure how important it

> is to most parents in Southwark. There are lots

> of oversubscribed single sex schools. However, I

> guess if enough parents felt strongly about it,

> pressure could be brought to make more schools

> co-ed.

>

> That notwithstanding though, I?m not sure I

> understand all the despair and anger further up

> thread (not directed at you HP). We are all quite

> lucky as far as state education goes in this area

> both at primary and secondary level.

>

Agree - we are lucky. I guess people often just overlook those just outside of their local area( and are less 'familiar' with them(?) Going onto the online admissions map and finding ones I'd never heard of was an eyeopener.

[Otta]

hoonaloona Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I've heard Kingsdale was a no-go zone back in the

> day too! As was Charter when it was William Penn.

> That's why it's worth remembering that times and

> schools change I guess...

Haha, William Penn was about as bad as a school could get.

[LondonMix]

Maybe some of the other formerly bad schools just need to rebrand. It might help change how people see them

[redjam]

I agree that there are lots of fantastic schools in London and in that sense we're very lucky. But I just don't know how realistic they are to get into if you live round here, which is why I started this thread in the first place. Even Charter and Kingsdale, which are effectively right on our doorstep, are by no means a given for most of us in ED.

Obviously the new school will alleviate the pressure but I still wonder what are the realistic 'back-up' options if you don't get the golden ticket of one of those two? Even the head of Sydenham School apparently said at the open day today they're expecting their catchment area to be 1.5 miles, which puts much of ED out of the running (don't mean to scaremonger, incidentally - I don't see how she can possibly predict accurately how far the catchment area will extend and it certainly went further than that last year, so I'm taking it with a perhaps optimistic pinch of salt).

But anyway, there's been lots of good ideas on this thread, thank you. Much to ponder. God, I'll be happy when this is all over and I never have to sit on a plastic chair in an echoing sports hall listening to a head bang on about how they 'believe in excellence' ever again...

[LondonMix]

Have you visited Harris Peckham? It is closer than many of the schools mentioned, is easy to get into due to its historic bad reputation (which no longer applies) and by many measures gets better academic outcomes for its students than the Charter. It's also co-ed and non-faith and is rated Good by Ofsted....

[redjam]

Funnily enough a friend was saying this very morning that she visited it recently and it was most definitely On The Up.

Not that all my conversations are revolving round secondary schools at the moment or anything.

[mrs.lotte]

I have been doing the rounds in the last few weeks and have been very pleasantly surprised at how fabulous the schools are; I've seen COLA, Elm Green, Forest Hill boys, St Thomas, Harris ED, Deptford Green, Charter and Kingsdale and would very be happy for my son to go to any of them. Am so pleased that many people seem to be waking up to the idea that there are more than just one or two schools that are good and worth supporting and that some of the schools on that list are under subscribed is extraordinary. Anyway, having approached the whole situation with significant trepidation my happy conclusion is that the most popular schools seem absolutely fine but not necessarily better than a fine selection of excellent and undersubscribed relatively nearby schools.

[loni]

Don't know where you get that St Thomas the Apostle was "somewhere you go when you don't get your first choice",it was always a fabulous boys school and is back up there now. You had to be a practising Catholic with a priests letter too.

[Otta]

loni Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Don't know where you get that St Thomas the

> Apostle was "somewhere you go when you don't get

> your first choice"

I got that idea from all the friends I had who went there after not gewtting their first choices. I almost ended up there after not getting in to Aske's, but was top of the waiting list luckily.

,it was always a fabulous boys

> school and is back up there now.

I'm not saying it was a bad school at all, but it wasn't seen as a top choice back then (I'm talking late 80s!!!)

You had to be a

> practising Catholic with a priests letter too.

This definitely wasn't the case, one of my best friends went there (a year ahead of me so would have started 88), and he certainly wasn't catholic.

[Carbonara]

"I don't see the point in putting down unrealistic choices or schools that are undersubscribed that I wouldn't let my child set foot in anyway!"

and

The opinion that you should not accept the school offered on National Offer Day.

1. Unless you are CERTAIN that you have 'dead certs' higher up your list, it really is worth having a school as a 'fall back'. It is a simple fact that not every child can fit into Charter or Kingsdale (for example). If you do not name a school that can offer you a place on your list of preferences, you will be allocated any place left over after everyone else's places have been allocated. So, after other people have been given their 'least favourite' you will be offered any places remaining.

2. Accepting a place at a less favoured school: Accepting a place on National Offer Day in no way disadvantages you in appealing, or in being on waiting lists. After March you can go in as many waiting lists as you like. However, if you turn down the original offer, the LA has met it's obligation to find you a place. They will, when school starts, need to ensure your child has a place, but it is their legal duty to find a school place, not THE place that you like best in an over-subscribed school. It is not in Renata's gift to alter the law that is the Schools Admissions Code. Also, sadly, it is not in Renata's gift to have much influence on local schools as Southwark have no 'community' secondary schools any more, and the government will not allow LAs to build them.

If you are sure that you can get a place in a local school, you do not have to fill up every place.

Other things to remember:

The 'last distance' is that on National Offer Day, it spreads after the waiting lists start to move. And you can't always be sure of the criteria that someone got in on - SEN, adopted from care, or even fraudulent rental application.

[Alec John Moore]

Hi redjam

I just wanted to pick up on your "golden ticket" point. We have two of ours at secondary school around here and can identify with the stress and pressure of the secondary school transfer process. What I now think is that it's more about the most suitable school for the child rather than the best school per say. Of course, we don't have free choice in this for reasons stated above, and more, so it's difficult to be confident that you'll get the school that is best for your child. We found that even though we got our first born in to a desirable school we still had to stay on their case to ensure that we got the best education for our child. Rereading that makes me sound like a pushy parent but it is more about understanding that even in the best of schools, your child may not get the best unless you help make sure that happens.

Hope that helps.

[LondonMix]

I agree with most of this-- however, from my understanding, the furthest distance statistic is for the furthest place offered on the distance criteria alone. It therefore excludes sibling spaces, SEN, and scholarships places.

Anyway, just put down 6 schools to reduce your chance of being allocated a place in the far north of the borough where your child will have to commute for longer and not live near his or her classmates.

I have no idea what people think should be done. Should the Charter and Kingsdale take over every school in Southwark regardless of how well the existing schools are doing? I genuinely have no idea what people think Renata or anyone else should do . There isn't a shortage of places in the borough yet (not until 2018) and the micro shortage in the south of the borough is being addressed with opening of a new school. Everyone will get a place within a reasonable commute at a good school. There are many schools that are as academically strong as Charter and Kingsdale.

Carbonara Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "I don't see the point in putting down unrealistic

> choices or schools that are undersubscribed that I

> wouldn't let my child set foot in anyway!"

> and

> The opinion that you should not accept the school

> offered on National Offer Day.

>

> 1. Unless you are CERTAIN that you have 'dead

> certs' higher up your list, it really is worth

> having a school as a 'fall back'. It is a simple

> fact that not every child can fit into Charter or

> Kingsdale (for example). If you do not name a

> school that can offer you a place on your list of

> preferences, you will be allocated any place left

> over after everyone else's places have been

> allocated. So, after other people have been given

> their 'least favourite' you will be offered any

> places remaining.

>

> 2. Accepting a place at a less favoured school:

> Accepting a place on National Offer Day in no way

> disadvantages you in appealing, or in being on

> waiting lists. After March you can go in as many

> waiting lists as you like. However, if you turn

> down the original offer, the LA has met it's

> obligation to find you a place. They will, when

> school starts, need to ensure your child has a

> place, but it is their legal duty to find a school

> place, not THE place that you like best in an

> over-subscribed school. It is not in Renata's

> gift to alter the law that is the Schools

> Admissions Code. Also, sadly, it is not in

> Renata's gift to have much influence on local

> schools as Southwark have no 'community' secondary

> schools any more, and the government will not

> allow LAs to build them.

>

> If you are sure that you can get a place in a

> local school, you do not have to fill up every

> place.

>

> Other things to remember:

>

> The 'last distance' is that on National Offer Day,

> it spreads after the waiting lists start to move.

> And you can't always be sure of the criteria that

> someone got in on - SEN, adopted from care, or

> even fraudulent rental application.

[DenmotherSmith]

I thought Id add my experience for all those going into the firestorm of secondary choices. My eldest (now year 11) received his 5th choice school (HBAED) in 2009, we waited on lists, but to no avail so he started in September and he loved it, it was very much the right space for him. Two years later son number two is in year six and we don't think twice about sending him to join his brother. September all things start well, but come the end of the autumn term he is not happy, he can't settle, there are a few boys giving him grief and despite the schools best efforts things hit downward spiral and he is desperate to leave. We find ourselves applying in year to schools as he was not on a waiting list anywhere. In year application is interesting as the school can ask for things they don't normally in admissions such as school reports etc. A week after handing in his application, he sits a banding test and two days later is offered a place at Kingsdale. It has been the perfect place for him and he is very happy there.

This year son number three wants to follow his brother to Kingsdale and I'm happy for him to do so.

Each child is different, no school is a perfect fit for all and its not set in stone, they can move and there is a surprising amount of movement well into year 8.

[Carbonara]

LondonMix - you are right, last distance does not include children who have been admitted under other criteria. Sorry for not being clear, what I was trying to say was that people (like a poster above) should be wary of assuming the extent of a catchment for a school based on the address of a child that they know goes there, because you don't always know the criteria that that child was admitted under, and it might well have been medical need, adopted form care, or got a place on appeal based on a talent for stamp collecting or whatever.

"Should the Charter and Kingsdale take over every school in Southwark regardless of how well the existing schools are doing?" - LOL - there will still be the knotty issue of the social make up of the local catchment. This seems to feature large in people's response to a school, and beyond the hallowed environs of ED... ;)

[Rachael]

Does anyone have any experience of or views on Harris Crystal Palace? I'm looking for some more mixed school options. From the admissions criteria there is a chance to get in from a distance, but I missed the (one) Open Evening in September and not sure how I can get to see it. Any thoughts welcome, please PM me if you prefer. Thank you!!

[Rachael]

Hi just to say would appreciate anyone's input on this! Thanks!

[tomskip]

Perhaps not many children from East Dulwich go to Harris Crystal Palace? I've lived here for a long time and have yet to meet one that does. Isn't it like a super-selective grammar for those outside their catchment? It is yet another school with yet another set of admissions rules in a supposedly comprehensive area!

When you try to explain it to your 10 year old you find we have an inconsistent system that argues on the one hand it is absolutely imperative for secondary aged children and all of their siblings go to their closest school (see Charter ED's proposed admissions priorities). But if you don't happen to live quite close enough or have an older sibling with a place, then parents should instead be adventurous and grateful and send their child to a school, even a faith school in a faith they do not share, quite a distance away where he or she will know not one soul on the first day of term. And all that time the child will be crossing paths on their school journey with children who live much further afield travelling in to the school which, actually, they would have liked to attend.

When you say "I have no idea what people think should be done" LondonMix, I could say - specifically in East Dulwich - that

1. Harris Boys and Girls could become co-ed and with no selective element as most parents seems to prefer co-ed

2. Kingsdale could become a "local" not pan-London secondary, without a selective element, and class sizes of 30

and, more generally

3. the sibling priority dropped at secondary age

T'aint never going to happen though is it, while there is no equivalent of the old Local Authority input.

[mumra]

Does anyone have an opinion/experience of Prendergast? Would be really interested if so.

[samstopit]

Can anyone tell me when the music / sport scholarship tests are held for children wanting to try this route? Also which of the state schools locally do sport or music scholarships. My eldest isn't quite at this stage yet but I'm wondering how it all works. We live in ED / Peckham Rye. Thanks.