why have we got a 20mph zone?

[spider69]

first mate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Huggers,

>

> Afraid so. First offence is ?100 and 3 points.

>

> I have got a suspicion that S'wark, whilst stating

> 20 mph is self enforcing, may sneak in the odd

> camera with a view to maximising revenue

> opportunities. Obviously, if they said it was

> going to be enforced everyone would be a lot more

> careful, but I suspect by deliberately creating

> confusion they hope to fine more people.

>

> I wonder if it would be possible to get info on

> what cameras are operating and where? It seems

> unfair to me to state it is self enforcing if they

> plan to then enforce but without telling people. I

> have said before if safety really is the motive

> then tell us where it is being enforced. At least

> in those areas everyone will drive more carefully.

The council does not receive the income from traffic speed cameras; we understand that the income from them goes to Transport for London/Metropolitan police and then on to HM Treasury.

Yours sincerely,

John Williamson

Business Manager Southwark Council

If the cameras are put up and money's earned go to TFL and others surely it is them not Southwark who decide what speed and 30mph seems to be the accepted speed they should be set up for

Perhaps Cllr Barber could explain how this is worked. Seems too cozy for my liking

[Huggers]

ah it is definitely that one on the map Kford. Phew! I hope.

[first mate]

Spider69,

News to me. Could James Barber confirm that TFL own cameras and that they are all set to 30?

Does sWark own any cameras and if so what are tbey set to?

If all cameras are 30 moh no wonder all the buses do not adhere to 20. Is the reality that 20 is just something the council would like but cannot enforce?

[ed_pete]

I think that this'll just take time to get used to. You've been asked to reduce your speed by a third and it's difficult. A bit like plastic bags and smoking in pubs eventually it'll be forgotten and everyone will accept it as the norm. And hopefully there'll be less accidents as a result.

[TheArtfulDogger]

Or the opposite, everyone will forget it's 20 and drive at 30

[rodneybewes]

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Or the opposite, everyone will forget it's 20 and

> drive at 30

Hence the need for more cameras to aid forgetfulness?

[Mugglesworth]

I attended a speed awareness course a year or so ago (no, not for speeding in a built up area) and it was quite enlightening. The tutor (ex-police, I believe) stated that speed restrictions painted on the road are "information only" and do not designate a restricted speed area; that can only happen if the speed limit in a red circle sign is displayed as you enter the area and there are reminder "repeater signs" at intervals throughout the area. It seems that many of Southwark's recent 20mph areas do not conform to this (and promotional banners do not count either). The older 20mph areas are more likely to comply.

[DulwichFox]

And when everyone observes the 20 MPH limit and the fines dry up.. what next...

I've got an idea.. 15 MPH limit.

Foxy.

[Penguin68]

And when everyone observes the 20 MPH limit and the fines dry up.. what next...

I've got an idea.. 15 MPH limit.

As much as I generally hate and despise Southwark Council and its apparatchiks I do not believe the 20mph limit has been imposed as a revenue earner - the evidence on speed related injuries is clear - the slower the speed the less the injury. So on clearly residential or shopping streets a restriction to 20mph is (probably) a genuine contribution to injury reduction. I do not think it will have a great impact (sorry) on accident occurrence - speed (unless really excessive, or over e.g. diesel spills) is less a contributory factor than carelessness or poor driving, including phone based distractions etc.

That its imposition has been poorly thought-out and planned, poorly targeted and poorly implemented (including logical and legal signage, appropriate roads, penalties etc.) goes without saying, and is par for the course. It may also reflect a general anti-car bias which we see time and again - as if using private vehicles (indeed any vehicles) is still the distinguishing mark of the idle (and hated) rich.

[kford]

I'd love to know how much this 20mph project cost. Portsmouth has one, and it cost ?550,000. It also didn't work: http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/business/local-business/20mph-limits-in-firing-line-after-rise-in-accidents-1-4027011

[Renata Hamvas]

The old speed cameras are gradually being changed over to digital ones (eg Brenchley Gardens etc will be changed too). The pair on Linden Grove in Nunhead are new digital ones (replaced an old bulky one, ie they are set for the 20mph zone). Linden Grove was part of the South Nunhead 20mph zone (Ivydale Road etc) instigated prior to the Southwark general 20mph. The old camera was installed many years ago, prior to the 20mph zone and like the others of this type within the Borough could not be set low enough for the 20mph limit (it was one designed for 30mph). The new cameras can! Southwark does not gain financially from these cameras, the 20mph limit is definitely for safety rather than revenue reasons.

Renata

[BrandNewGuy]

ed_pete Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A bit like plastic bags

> and smoking in pubs eventually it'll be forgotten

> and everyone will accept it as the norm.

The trouble is this is not a blanket national policy but a piecemeal one. How is someone from outside the borough supposed to know about the 20mph borough-wide limit if it isn't properly signed?

[ed_pete]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ed_pete Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > A bit like plastic bags

> > and smoking in pubs eventually it'll be

> forgotten

> > and everyone will accept it as the norm.

>

> The trouble is this is not a blanket national

> policy but a piecemeal one. How is someone from

> outside the borough supposed to know about the

> 20mph borough-wide limit if it isn't properly

> signed?

TfL says "Almost 25% of all London roads are now 20mph and London boroughs such as Islington, Camden and the City of London are leading the way with borough-wide 20mph limits on their roads. Hackney is also seeking to introduce 20mph next year."

Lewisham are going 20mph

http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/transport/road-safety/Pages/20mph-borough-speed-limit.aspx

Lambeth are going 20mph

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/parking-transport-and-streets/streets-and-roads/lambeth-goes-20mph-guide

Wandsworth have started...

http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/news/article/12910/councillors_approve_11_new_20mph_zones

Give another 5 years and all the central London boroughs will be 20mph

[BrandNewGuy]

That's fine, but they're not at the moment and the current signage is incomplete, confusing and incorrect. So no out-of-towner - or even out-of-borougher - is remotely certain of getting it right.

[spider69]

Renata Hamvas Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The old speed cameras are gradually being changed

> over to digital ones (eg Brenchley Gardens etc

> will be changed too). The pair on Linden Grove in

> Nunhead are new digital ones (replaced an old

> bulky one, ie they are set for the 20mph zone).

> Linden Grove was part of the South Nunhead 20mph

> zone (Ivydale Road etc) instigated prior to the

> Southwark general 20mph. The old camera was

> installed many years ago, prior to the 20mph zone

> and like the others of this type within the

> Borough could not be set low enough for the 20mph

> limit (it was one designed for 30mph). The new

> cameras can! Southwark does not gain financially

> from these cameras, the 20mph limit is definitely

> for safety rather than revenue reasons.

>

> Renata

Out of interest, who owns the cameras, who decides where they go and who pays for their installation. Can who ever owns them decide at what level they can be set at

[first mate]

Renata,

Will we be told when these cameras are operational and will there be clear warnings on the roads that 20 mph is being enforced?

It is currently difficult to maintain 20 mph solidly as drivers are intimidated into going faster by other drivers; cyclists weaving in and out at speed, especially down hills, are another problem, all of which make attempts to stick to 20 mph more hazardous. What level of error/ leeway will these new cameras give, if any?

If any councillors have not yet tried the drive up and down Dog Kennel and Sydenham Hills and maintaining 20 mph all the way I would urge them to do so.

[uncleglen]

There's me crossing the road thinking I've got time because it's 20mph and nearly got mowed down because some illiterate was doing 30mph. We are being lulled into a false sense of security ready to be squashed by speeding motorists ...

[dimples]

I agree with first mate here I find it hard to stay at 20 just after the library at the top of Barry road. Towards forest hill and also from the road connecting the top of sydenham and sydenham hill .

[DulwichFox]

dimples Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I agree with first mate here I find it hard to

> stay at 20 just after the library at the top of

> Barry road. Towards forest hill and also from the

> road connecting the top of sydenham and sydenham

> hill .

After passing the flats just before the Old Grove Tavern it is 30 mph into Forest Hill

and then you come under Lewisham 30 mph.

DulwichFox

[Rockets]

Renata - can you explain what you mean by the council doesn't gain financially from them? Who does then? And what other relationships does Southwark have with the company that makes money from them?

[redpost]

"The slower people drive the closer together they drive and pollution becomes more concentrated.

Add to that the problem by more traffic controls cars are at a standstill with lights at red for up to 2 mins.

Then pulling away with a 20 mph limit congestion builds up..

Cars also create more pollution at 20 mph with higher revs and being in lower gear. and an increase in noise.. "

What utter nonsense, road capacity increases as the speed decreases, due to shorter stopping distances and smoother traffic flow. The faster your peak speed, the more energy you spend accelerating (F=MA) which is only wasted again when you brake (unless you have a hybrid). The engine is a lot more efficient as well at lower speed/rev. This is very basic physics.

[DulwichFox]

Utter Nonsense ??

How Traffic Jams Affect Air Quality

No one will be surprised to learn that areas with the largest number of cars on the road see higher levels of air pollution on average.

Motor vehicles are one of the largest sources of pollution worldwide.

You may be surprised to learn, however, that slower moving traffic emits more pollution than when cars move at freeway speeds.

Traffic jams are bad for our air.

http://www.environmentalleader.com/2012/01/05/how-traffic-jams-affect-air-quality/

DulwichFox

[Curmudgeon]

I have only experienced about 3 cars driving at 20

It is roundly and completely ignored IME

[rodneybewes]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Utter Nonsense ??

>

> How Traffic Jams Affect Air Quality

>

> No one will be surprised to learn that areas with

> the largest number of cars on the road see higher

> levels of air pollution on average.

> Motor vehicles are one of the largest sources of

> pollution worldwide.

>

> You may be surprised to learn, however, that

> slower moving traffic emits more pollution than

> when cars move at freeway speeds.

>

> Traffic jams are bad for our air.

>

> http://www.environmentalleader.com/2012/01/05/how-

> traffic-jams-affect-air-quality/

>

> DulwichFox

The comparison there is with freeway speeds, not London traffic speeds. It also says that there are more pollutants the more you accelerate. So, if we are going to follow your rather free logic, that means if you are only accelerating to 20 instead of 30 you spend less time accelerating and therefore pollute less, no?

In reality in London the more capacity you give to traffic on the roads, either in terms of actual distance of road surface or by speeding things up, the more traffic fills up the available space and the more pollution and accidents there are. The answer is to reduce the amount of individual road traffic by removing incentives to travel that way, not to make it easier to jump into the car.

Let's face it, for all the moaning about the drop from 30mph to 20mph on this particular forum, we all know that this is the way it's heading - there isn't going to be a raising of speeds or any encouragement given to driving in London for the forseeable future. Does anyone actually believe that will happen?

Of course if they gave us a decent mass transit system with proper infrastructure a lot of people would be happier ditching the car in the first place...

[empetak]

as a scooter rider i can quite often feel ''bullied'' into going faster with cars coming right up my backside! and some ''aggressively'' overtaking me. ending in me going over the 20 limit quite often