NHS staff - 50% higher rate of sickies

[buggie]

It's no big secret that I work in the NHS too, and it goes without saying that I agree/identify with the arguments put forward and discussed by my NHS colleagues.

Just want to try and give an idea of how sickness can escalate/have an effect.

I work within a small team - there's normally 4 of us working during the day and 3 (sometimes only 2) during the night.

So, if one person if off sick we're straight away taking a quarter or even half of the workforce away with no way of reducing the amount of work the diminished team will face (not able to leave sick children in the pigeonhole of the person off).

Would typically be lucky to get more than 6hrs notice of someone being off sick (from hence referred to as "sickie") as is the nature of becoming sick/being ill but hoping to be better by tomorrow.

As it's a specialist field, while we can try and get agency cover it's often impossible or if we do more stressful as the day is often spent having to show them the ropes/watch over their shoulder/see exactly how busy it needs to be before they move from a chair/wake up.

Also, if there's an indication that the "sickie" will be off for a few days, shifts may be jiggled so the run of 3 nights can become 5 (all be it with that w/e you were rostered to work in a week now off - but that is a week away!)

So stress is increased, breaks are likely to become impossible dreams - especially if you're left being the only senior person on, therefore you're likely to burnout and become sick as well (that's not even considering having caught the lurgie from the "sickie").

Knowing how awful it can be when someone is off there is "presentism" for sure as well as returning too soon, which is especially bad as there's no way of gently easing someone back (especially with musculo-skeletal problems) and so also have problems with people returning then going back off again.

Obviously the answer would be to have more staff... but it is a specialised field and doesn't appeal to all so it is often difficult to recruit and retain staff. Short of the invention of of packets of snip corner, add water and grow a nurse in 5 mins (am working on the patent) I'm unsure what more could be done.

[buggie]

BTW MrBen - when our computers go down, we move onto a paper/manual system which is a bit slower, and a pain compared to the IT programmes but we carry on with everything we're meant to do.

While in debt to our IT guys (they know their loved by us all!) we have to adapt and cope during the breakdown no matter what- can imagine it being stressful esp as you probably had nurses/drs breathing down your neck asking when things would be back to normal again, most of their stress was probably related to keeping everything moving otherwise.

[MrBen]

Sean - you know this is a place for reasoned debate. You may not agree with my views on this one nor the style in which I've used here but so be it.

Nor have I misquoted you - and in fact when did I ever say this? " you are the creme de la creme but your colleagues in the back room let the side down...". Are you attempting to misquote me?

I have a huge amount of respect for hard working NHS staff and you should know that given my time seriously ill in hospital in 2006.

But why should I not also be able to take a view on certain NHS workings, challenge those who might have a different view and present them here for discussion?

[SeanMacGabhann]

I think that would be a decent place to start. But that wasn't quite where you started. If nothing else, the response from NHS staff on here alone should have been sufficient to give pause for thought

But to address your points - You said you haven't misquoted me - I disagree

my words were:

"

I think one of the reasons the NHS (that is the thread topic after all) has higher rates is the size of the organisation. The bigger any organisation the harder it is to micro-manage things like this....

I'm only saying that is ONE possible reason."

Your words were:

"Sean thinks it?s because the NHS is too big"

I believe that is a misquote

As for your point :

"in fact when did I ever say this? " you are the creme de la creme but your colleagues in the back room let the side down...". Are you attempting to misquote me? "

your words were

"they can also a cushy number for those removed from the necessities of front line action (back office functions = approx half the NHS payroll) with a less than honorable work ethic. And don?t expect to see this portion of the NHS or PS workforce posting here to admit it."

Am I wrong in equating the two?

At best... AT BEST.. the subtext is frontline staff are cool, but money is diverted from frontline services by covering for the backoffice staff

You seem surprised at the vehemence of the response - could it not be the "so be it" attitude which is causing that? As repeatedly stated by various parties, there is a discussion to be had here - but to effectively walk into a room shouting "you're all skiving"... I mean... what did you expect?

Subsequent posts haven't really recanted that position either, leaving the accusation hanging - "he's having a pop". However much you deny it

How about - "A report suggests that absence is 50% higher in the NHS compared with elsewhere - can any of our NHS posters shed any light onto why this might be? Is it true? Are you left high and dry by 'colleagues' or are there occupational/curcumstantial reasons behind this"

Even then, the dismissal of any answer by (and forgive me for repeating this) PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT!!! as just vacuous flim-flam isn't very edifying

Have I mentioned there IS a discussion to be had here? I have? good

"Dodgy" absence rates will bother the "good" NHS staff as much as you MrBen - but they are unfailingly trying to explain there may be more to it than "skiving" - if the debate is going to make any progress it will need a little less high-handed judgemental.... ness. Or something

Again, more specifically - I asked for

a) evidence broken down by private sector occupations (to compare fairly, of course)

b) why, of all occupations, you have chosen the NHS, in this week of all weeks, to have a go

[MrBen]

Still - it's provoked some debate and rankled a few with postings now second only to the Is there a God thread. Almost as much chance of finding hard stats for that one too!

Whatever comes next I will now gracefully bow out having expressed an honest view and my apologies to those genuinely hard working NHS staff out there who may have taken umbrage.

*Tips bowler hat. Leaves Drawing Room for pizza at The Gowlett*

[SeanMacGabhann]

Hmm - SOME points for attempted humour. Grudgingly. But what next...

Coming soon - poster PeveQ with a "discussion" about "Black people - they're a bit dodgy aren't they????" - hey no facts and figures, just some newspaper innuendo based on a less-than-accepted report but at least it Cause A Discussion, Hey???

EDIT: That isn't to equate anyone with racist views - just to point out that "hey it caused a debate" isn't a great argument

[????]

Well that's not true and a bit of a smear too really Sean - questioning how we all (all taxpayers public sector and private sector) have our money spent is nothing compared to racism, however provocatevily put by MrB and your kind of inference that it's a kind of a joke doesn't make that alright....you and I have form on people diasagreeing with your viewpoints kind of being smeared in a semi-lighthearted way, and I think you are guilty of this and it has got my back up before as you know - Daily Mail, pennypinching, beancounter etc.... and, as for 'less than accepted report', with the exception of Macroban, most of the public sector workers on here have explicitly or implicitly acknowledged that there is some discrepancy in rates of sickness between the Public and Private sector - it's really not a mickey mouse report and not even vaguely comparible with your 'black people are a bit dodgy' example. Come on, there is a needed debate here but apparently for you the NHS specifically but also the Public Sector IS a sacred cow..

...the

[SeanMacGabhann]

here we go

read my post again - it specifically goes out of its way to say its not comparing racism with spending NHS money or the OP - what it deliberately does is deny the case that "hey ho sorry if I upset anyone bit at least I caused a debate" is a valid debating point. The reason I mentioned it is because racists (be it stand up comics, journalists or crappy phone ins) use it, it's a really really shitty and cheap get out clause - and whether it's racism, the worth of Mott the Hoople or the NHS is besides the point.

As for the "less than accepted report" - well neither you or I have read it but there is a discrepancy between people who have (reporters and Annaj) so the jury isn't in. I'm not in any way calling the report Mickey Mouse but I am calling the reporting (and taking up by you) as poor

Let's be clear here - the OP stated

"50% more sickies than their private sector"

which is not what the report say at all.

If people are willing to accept a discrepancy in rates between public and private that's cool - I'm just saying in my experience it's not that clear cut

yes there is a debate - something I have repeated many times - but not on the terms dictated to by the OP and, sadly, you - which seems to be "guilty of skiving until proven innocent."

The report (from what I have read) accuses noone of skiving - but asks legitimate questions about the effects of health on NHS staff and what can be done to improve it. That seems fair and reasonable - but you and MrBen have piled in with "where's my money you slaaaaaags" type debate.

No. Shush. you have...

It;s not about sacred cows - it;s about respecting people around you. And the fact that all of the NHS people have responded so well in the face of provocation speaks 10 times more about them than it does you. This is not fair debate, this is a public hanging

As with the baby P outcry, the damage done will far outweigh any "money saved" - if I had to deal with the drunken public every Friday night, abusing me, feeling me up and when I protest, I hear the words "I pay your wages love", it's disrespect of people that does that. And you are giving currency to it. Not by questioning, but by the tone you take

(took me a while to get the "the..." ref)

[????]

emotive and made up stuff again Sean, point out where any of my posts get anywhere near "where's my money you slags" please?....it clearly, really isn't possible to debate this with you if you Sean,seriously.

[????]

The Daily Mail/Fox etc would be proud of your subtle smearing style .......argue don't put up unpleasant made up verbatims such as "I pay your wages love" into your replies.....I'd abhor that sentiment and have got NOWHERE near a staetment like that on this thread...

[SeanMacGabhann]

Quids I'm not smearing - you are

You are in mega denial that you have an agenda wherby you are accusing the NHS staff of skiving. And more importantly pissing those staff off

Several of them have, far more rationally that I, posted, at length on here. for the most part you have ignored them and focused on my posts - predictably. Answer THEIR points , not mine. I'm enjoying pricking the "we in the private sector" sanctimonious bullshit but I'm just a sideline here.... answer the staff

Apart from you and MrBen, there is no big accusations of skiving on the NHS. You HAVE accused people of skiving right? You are, essentially saying the private sector has a harsher line on "absence" than the public sector or NHS? I'm not wrong about that am I? So from that premise you have ignored (by and large) all the postings from annaj, bignumber5, buggie and all the other people who know what they are talking about and focused on my, tit-for-tat-you-start-a-thread-in-shrill-manner-and-I'll reply responses

You haven't in any way addressed the very sane, clear, cogent replies from those people who deal with this shit daily. People who are FURIOUS with you asinine, plucked from the pages, anger

Ignore me and answer them

But if you are asking where I get "where's my money you slaaaaaags" (and those repeated vowels are SO important!!) how about

"So why still such a sigbificant gap in sickness accross all the public sector compared to the private sector? Added to that the better job security and copper bottomed guaranteed final salary pensions and perhaps you can see why we in the private sector are asking these questions especialy"

for starters. there is moere

You and MrBen have continually said "you (as in Annaj et al) do a more important job than me" so how about a little trust when they say they are pissed off at the continual innuendo. If their colleagues ARE letting them down with constant sickies would they not be as pissed off as you?? I think they would

I am not some Fox/Murdoch smear merchant - this thread was started in a FOX fashion, you have joined in and I am giving as good as I get.

But if you want serious debate, like I say, ignore me and address the points made by NHS staff

One final point - when you say "don't put up unpleasant made up verbatims such as "I pay your wages love" into your replies" - trust me that isn't my opinion alone. I received several replies from NHS staff thanking me for pointing out that obviousness - (not aimed at you btw - MrBen is as, if not more, culpable) - but that subtext was noted by several people. if you didn't mean it, by all means clarify - but don't pin the shock on me

[????]

Sean that is truly laughable all of it......I so give in, I thought this was a drawing room for serious debate.

"You are in mega denial that you have an agenda wherby you are accusing the NHS staff of skiving"...what a grossly simplistic, generalised and offensive statment to try and put in the mouth of anyone who dares ask some questions.....fairly straightforwardsly, without innuendo and certainly without the casual/sexist 'verbatims' your post assign to them......... you seem to have a lot of assumptions about me, my personality and politics which I find simplistic at best....I don't see any evidence for these on my posts here. I think you should look at your own prejudice towards people who don't hold your exact world view.

[SeanMacGabhann]

There is nothing I can say is there. A room for serious debate? I have suggested you address the people who have made serious debating points. But you seem determined to just reply to whatever I type and not anything the people involved type

I repeat - the initial poster said the NHS "throw 50% more sickies than their private sector" - you haven't once suggested that that is a gross overstatement - so how am I making offensive statements? How is that a "straightforward without innuendo" question? It is so loaded it renders all further discussion moot...unless you question it

I don't have any assumptions about you (apart from positive ones having met you) but based on your posts on this thread you don't have a lot of time for the people who have bothered to answer in full, the questions raised. They have posted LONG, DETAILED, rebuttals but have seen scant recognition. Me, with my like-for-like polemic has drawn all the attention. That can't be right?

Now I could be wrong - I don't want further a futile slanging match - so if the general viewers think i have been out of order I'll hold my hands up, apologise, buy you a pint and all the usual..... But my impression, based on your posts, is that you, in essence agree with the statement in the OP. And that any testimony to the contrary has not been addressed by you

I HOPE that is a slightly less offensive way of stating things...

So I might yet go and scrub all my posts on here - which will leave the others - so answer them

[????]

Thank you that is less offensive....

I've just read back through all my posts

I don't think I have addressed all the posters replies by any means and, as it happens, I was taking on much of what they said and thinking about some sort of reply ....as I indeed said on my post late on Friday. Look if you want.

I also initially spoke about 'my prejudice and anectdotal experience' way back on my first post on this thread I was (and have) hoping to achieve some greater understanding of this through debate (NOT argument)despite what you seem to think I don't have an agenda just some still held 'prejudice' that the Public Sector could and should be run more efficiently and we (all of us) as users and tax payers should aspire to this - as indeed most of the PS employees on here have indicated they do too. We also need to as, going forward, our public spending looks unsustainable with current conditions and attitudes towards taxation. I have on several occasions tried to defuse a mixture of cross-posting and misunderstanding on everyones part....including mine as I have been generally been thinking Public Sector per se rather than the NHS. I was hoping to post some of my thoughts when I'd had a bit of time including some hunble pie about I'd except my 'views' were perhaps shaped a few years back.....but then you stepped in

I cannot honestly see any justification for your post about -

- I pay your 'wages love',

- having an agenda

".but you and MrBen have piled in with "where's my money you slaaaaaags" type debate

- accusing the NHS staff of skiving

..I can post polemic and do the bar room stuff...I don't genuinely see where I've done that here, and thought the Drawing Room was meant to be a bit above all that and I think you've bought it down to the bar room on this occasion if I'm honest

Finally...

One final point - when you say "don't put up unpleasant made up verbatims such as "I pay your wages love" into your replies" - trust me that isn't my opinion alone. I received several replies from NHS staff thanking me for pointing out that obviousness - (not aimed at you btw - MrBen is as, if not more, culpable) - but that subtext was noted by several people. if you didn't mean it, by all means clarify - but don't pin the shock on me

I think that suggest a little bit of paranoia on all of their/your parts it's certainly not explicit in my posts so it suggests...*prepares can of worms for opening*...a certain amount of defensiveness...

the 'love' is a cheap aside as you are fully aware Sean, suggesting that anyone who asks is not only guilty of questioning the NHS but horrible sexist old pigs too....incidentally, of course all the male NHS employees are diamond

anyway, maybe we should take this debate back to a debate which is where I felt it was sort of going at one stage....

[MrBen]

Sean- I hope you won't mind if I do take your advice and ignore your out of character hissy fit above to get back to some constructive debate now that it's started?

Can I also kindly ignore your undeniable misquotes, insinuations, poorly judged comparisons to a racist and your rather odd paranoia that myself or Quids are pursuing a hidden private sector political agenda with this thread at a time when the NHS is under international focus in "this week of all weeks"?

And can I once again confirm my genuine respect for those in the NHS who have been good enough to post a view here based on their first hand experience without you suggesting otherwise, instead portraying me as some fat, rich non-dom right winger when in fact I'm just a normal hard working middle class guy, of middle politics, who CARES about our NHS. you want for nothing too Mr Shiny new Playstation 7 kettle barbecue triple cooked chips. To you, today, I say "go forth and dust your William Rose ribs with Paprika".

Ok with you Sir?

Can we please please now focus back on the debate?

Here are some facts from the report, which yes I have read - not all 103 pages admittedly, but enough.

- NHS staff take on average 10.7 days a year sick leave. This compares to the wider public sector average of 9.7 days.

- Private sector employees average 6.4 days per year.

- Unless my maths are mistaken that represents roughly a 50% increase or multiple of 1.5 times on the private sector rate.

- Were the NHS sickness rate to drop by a third in line or just above private sector it would generate an extra 3.4 million working days per year or direct cost savings of ?555 million

I stand by my belief that that is worth a discussion and I accept and acknowledge that the contributory factors to staff well being raised by AnnaJ, the lovely Buggie, Lulu and Brum all surely contribute to this excessive rate.

But I also believe that there is a problem with the rate of dishonest sickies thrown by lifestyle staffers across the board and that you'll never ever get hard facts (to get exactly how much of that 50% excess) to support this because of the politics,practicalities, hit to morale and subjectivity involved.

Yet it's not good enough to ignore it because huge - as in literally NHS changing sums of money - are involved. It's the Great Unspoken in the public sector. And yes whilst my time in the NHS was I agree "nothing special" I was appalled at what I saw in the four institutions I worked in. An experience which, with the recent report from a respected Occupational Health doctor prompted me to start this thread.

As Keef and LuLu correctly point out, Labour introduced much tighter controls for monitoring staff absence in 2004 to address the problem but I question whether these have worked given the 2009 rate is largely unchanged.

I thank those who have kindly contributed with their own current NHS experience, much at the sharp end of patient care and who don't see any issue with absentee dishonesty or those staff taking a free ride. I realise the slightest whiff of such an accusation is enough to make blood boil if you're doing 65 hour weeks, saving lives with little thanks. But to suggest that it's not a serious problem in certain areas is simply not true.

Tackling staff welfare /lifestyle / health support was the politically correct focus of Dr Boorman's report but it's clearly only one end of the stick. Is it not time the NHS started to pull its weight and tackle the other?

[LuLu Too]

I think it's time again for an actual NHS employee to interject.

There is a debate to be had on the issue of NHS sickness/absence rate - I'm just not convinced that this forum is the place.

There is even a wider debate to be had on Public Sector services per se - cost & efficacy thereof.

But regarding the topic of this thread - 50% higher rate of "sickies" in the NHS...

There seems to be to be a pervasive theme that this is due to an ingrained culture of absenteeism - if not amongst frontline clinical staff like myself and others posting on this thread, then amongst our "backroom" colleagues - those lifestyle staffers that MrBen speaks of.

As I have posted previously - of course a percentage of absences will be due to less than honest reasons - the classic duvet day.

But the report just doesn't reflect this as a valid reason to account for the discrepancies between Pubic & Private Sector sickness/absence rates.

Presenteeism is cited as a factor in this report. Clearly this is an issue (perhaps more so?) in Private Sector workplaces. Interestingly, presenteeism appears to be more of an issue amongst clinical staff ( eg: 71% of nurses versus 45% corporate non-clinical staff). This may add weight to MrBens apparent belief of ingrained acceptance of absence amongst some NHS staff groups. However what I find incongruous then is that musculoskeletal problems account for nearly half of NHS staff absences. This would suggest to me that these ailments are mong those staff in frontline clinical work.

Unless IT involves daily heavy lifting & handling?

However, for me one big factor that seems to be missing from this debate (although is briefly touched on in the report) is the number of female workers employed in the NHS (and the Public Sector in general) compared to the Private Sector.

This is even evidenced to me by the fact that it seems most of the NHS employees posting in this thread are, to the best of my knowledge, women. And those fighting the other corner, so to speak, are men (again to the best of my knowledge!).

Around 80% of NHS employees (across all grades & posts) are female. I do not know what the percentages are for Private Sector employees, but I suspect it is signifcantly less.

Female employees are likely to have higher rates of absences - often due to caring responsibilities - children, elderly or sick relatives.

I think this factor should be born in mind when comparing Public & Private Sector sickness/absence rates.

I could go on, but it is late and I have a full day of NHS work to face in the morning.

Unless of course, I "pull a sickie"...

[HAL9000]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> so if the general viewers think i have been out of order

Since you ask - as a disinterested observer of this thread, IMO: you have strayed into Strawman territory and have misquoted and/or misrepresented other posters' comments. Also, it is considered bad form to claim private email support for ones stated view/position.

Furthermore, a moderator's position could be compromised when s/he becomes a vociferous champion for one side of an argument, and, especially more so, when its proponents are personal friends or acquaintances. A moderator is supposed to maintain a detached objectivity ? I?m not sure one can have it both ways?

The Drawing Room is a new environment for all of us. Whilst we have to work within practical limits, the rules of netiquette are well established and should be followed to the best of our abilities if this section is to serve its intended purpose: a place for serious debate.

[The Chair]

Please note The Chair is not Sean MacGabhann - no issues of detached objectivity have been compromised.

[HAL9000]

The Chair: Thank you for illuminating an otherwise opaque issue. At one point Sean MacGabhann offered to delete all of his posts in this thread, which may have implied possession of Administrative privileges within the Drawing Room.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Ok, I've re-read the thread again now and it still vexes me when I'm accused of misrepresenting and/or misquoting, when I have found several instances of being misquoted, have played back verbatim the exchange of words and not had a single nod to that effect

So before going back on topic a brief digression to clarify:

Firstly Hal's point about mentioning PMs as bad form is spot on. I even knew at the time I probably shouldn't have done that so apologies to all concerned there

Quids - the "I pay your wages love" wasn't attributed to you. It was in the context of a Friday night, frontline staff dealing with drunken punters who take that line of reasoning. If I led people to believe then I apologise on that score as well. I tried to make some small connection between that attitude and the tone on here from some about the waste and the skiving. Because some on here are (and I think it's fair to say this?) focused on that aspect - which essentially does boil down to accusing others of stealing our money?

So for clarity, quids never said that, I don't think quids ever would even think that and if my argument suggested he would, I hold my hands up

the "where my money you slaaaaags" thing was intended to be a bit more pastiche. Duly noted, you have now written that you are thinking about all the posts made by NHS staff on here but for a long period there it didn't feel like they were getting proper responses and the refrain about waste, skiving, pensions, PS staff have it easy, coppor-bottomed pensions etc etc and so I allied that with a clcihed east end refrain. Was that so offensive? I can't see it but I'll bear it in mind

mrBen - when have I ever "instead portraying me as some fat, rich non-dom right winger " - I have said several times you have adopted a tone which is antagonistic (deliberately so) and therefore I said I thought you are out of order. In fact, after bignumber5's initial reply to you I believe I partially defended you? But when I accused you of misquoting me, you denied it so I posted evidence to the contrary, which you ignored. This hacks me off. If I pointed out that you are well off it wasn't to portray you in a negative light at all - it was just pointing out that quite often the peolpe who complain most about being hard done by are the ones with the least reason to complain. Does that mean I think you are complaining about being hard done by? A little bit perhaps - I could be wrong. But it was you who said "why should I pay for somebody to lie in bed on a Monday morning?" for example . I take your point about the office staff you encountered in your year but I genuinely think that that exists across the board in large offices...

Do I wish I hadn't used the "racist" example when saying "still it caused a debate" was a poor argument?? yeah probably - but it's fairly clear I wasn't equating or comparing you to a racist - just merely pointing out that if you come on, deliberately antagonise people, admit you are going to take flack, then please don't get upset when that's what happens

Nice stereotyping of me as well btw

[Huguenot]

We can all delete the content of our own posts - although the empty box and the "." remain as a ghostly reminder of opinions we regretted expressing...

Just use the 'Edit Post' link and drop in a full stop.

I should add that it ruins your reputation - Alan Dale did it once a year after he pushed buy-to-lets with a passion of a Camberwell candy man. As the credit crunch crumbled our dreams to dust he went back months 'editing' to give 'plausible' deniability that he'd promoted anything of the sort.

It wasn't 'plausible' at all. Never recovered poor chap, attracted the attentions of *Bob*

[HAL9000]

SeanMacGabhann:

Just to clarify, I wasn't picking on you. You were the only poster who had solicited an opinion so I based mine entirely on your posts.

[SeanMacGabhann]

no worries Hal - I didn't feel picked on

[????]

Sean - thanks for the clarification and I do accept now that your intention was not to attribute those comments, it didn't feel like it before so I am glad that you've cleared it up. I know that you care about this a lot and hence your perhaps slightly over-vitriolic response to Mr Ben and myself..believe it or not I do care too. My families health, education and generall well being are in the hands of many dedicated, hardworking individuals many of whom make huge sacrifices of time, financial reward and for little thanks....that doesn't mean that we, all of us, everyone, including people who don't work in the Public Sector can't ask questions about finance, reward and how ALL OF OUR collective money is being spent. Sometimes it does feels like we can't without an immediate emotional knee-jerk "Nurse hater/teacher basher" type reaction from some - although interestingly that is not what we have got from those who do actually work in the Public Sector on this thread.

Rather than answer in a one off the top of my head style I'm going to have a think on the many interesting points raised by the likes of Anna, LuLu and you earlier Sean (and others) and will come back with something (probably some agreement and some questions) but I now need to now stop skiviing and get on with some work!

[MrBen]

I did chuckle at the magic first miraculous appearance of The Chair this morning though!

I can almost see Sean texting Mockers furiously on the 40 in this morning "Help who's on duty for this one? Help me out!"

Interesting that The Chair has yet to actually intervene which means that:

A- The debate to date, whilst heated, has been fair and square and within broad rules of the Drawing Room or

B- They got the chair rota mixed up, or someones caught napping or

C- The Chair was skiving!

Anyway welcome Chair.