primary and secondary schools in dulwich and ED

[inglesa68]

Morning All

Was thinking of returning to dulwich/ed after 5 years of living in Spain. But after reading through some of the topics on schools i am genuinely scared!! Would i be out of my mind to return and expect to get a good school/bad school, or even any school for our what will be then 4/8/10 year old children? Please could someone enlighten me of the current conditions with first hand knowledge of the schools in the area, ie goodrich, hamlet, village, charter, bessemer, haberdashers?

bye for now

A very worried me

[James]

Firstly I admit no first-hand knowledge but I researched quite extensively on the subject for my own son two years ago.

Goodrich and Hamlet are good but horribly oversubscribed - you'd need to bag a house as close as possible.

Haberdashers? No chance! They now have a feeder system with nearby Monson Primary (so you could always move near there instead?) But a risk, since Monson is a dodgy school and will probably drag Haberdashers down with it. Haberdashers is officially the most over-subscribed state school in the country but offers a few music scholarships - so if your kids play that might be worth a punt.

[tallgirl]

If you are Catholic, there is St Antony's and St Francesca Cabrini Schools or St John and St Clements for C of E. Haberdashers haeve merged with Monson, but the rest of the places after this and music scholarships are being based on distance, so if you end up in Nunhead or Telegraph Hill, your chances are much better. The primary schools in these areas are Ivydale, Hollydale and Edmund Waller. These primaries are now good (a change from when you left, for Ivydale a huge change).

[inglesa68]

Haberdashers most oversubscribed state school in the country?? Why is this? and when i left no-one wanted their kids to go to Goodrich or Heber (does this still exist as very little mention of it?? lol) Everyone wanted either Dulwich Hamlet or Dulwich Village basically, or nothing.

Anyone got any views (good or bad) on Kingsdale or Charter? It would seem that if you cant afford or dont want to send your child to a fee paying school in the Dulwich area then you are in trouble!

Thanks for the replies

x

[James]

Try a search on Charter or Kingsdale, Inglesa (using the box in the top right-hand corner). Both are attracting growing numbers of middle-class kids (a sure sign of improvement) and seem to be getting good reports.

Haberdashers Aske's is a bit controversial to say the least. It basically pretends to be a comprehensive but operates a byzantine selection process which has been accused of being a covert way of selecting more able/easy-to-teach kids. Its results are certainly extremely impressive for a school that claims to teach children of all abilities. However recent tweaks to the selection process aimed at removing the middle-class advantage suggest that future results may not appear as impressive on paper. One thing's for certain, it remains extremely difficult to get into (although certain things may raise your chances, such as where you live and the music scholarships. The sibling rule would also count in your favour).

It's worth looking into bursaries and scholarships at the private schools. Otherwise Forest Hill Boys, Charter and Sydenham Girls all appear quite decent. Harris Boys will be opening in a few years but new schools do tend to take a while to sort themselves out.

As for primaries, Heber and Goodrich look good - they seem to be the best (apart from Hamlet and Village), probably due once again to an increasing middle-class influx. Either that or the church schools (if you qualify), although I've heard dodgy things about Cabrini.

The remaining state primaries are either awful or up-and-coming - depending on who you ask.

[bonaome]

I'm afraid education here is in a bit of a pickle. If I were you I'd stay in Spain, for the kids' sakes, and not just their education.

[Smiler]

Heber still exists and has become extremely popular.

[inglesa68]

Hi All

Thanks for the replies. Staying in Spain is not an option, my husband works in the City and has been commuting for what will be five years. Plus i feel we have 'done our time' here and would like to get back to some real life and culture - its hard to explain until you've lived here. I will miss it terribly but looking forward to being back.

I think we will probably go for Kingsdale or Charter catchment areas and see how we get on. This will make it hard for junior and primary choices but you cant have everything can you? We may look at Alleyns but resisting that at the moment. Would be interesting to know how many parents would send their children there if they had the option but think thats probably a new topic to start.

Kingsdale and Charter do seem to have good ofsteds and find many more positive things said about them in the topics than negative. Going to set about visiting them all and see how we get on...

[Canning]

Welcome back to the UK! I am not a parent but I am a teacher, please be cautious in using OFSTED reports, at best they only give an out of date snap shot of a school, at worst they are very misleading. Schools, both primary and secondary change very quickly. Don't forget that by joining a school your child/children become part of a dynamic process.Visit any school you are considering but bear in mind in some schools staff turnover can be rapid and this affects the character of the school greatly. If it makes you feel any better schools are not as important as people think, in my opinion, students spend a lot of time not in school and already arrive even in primary school with a huge amount of knowledge and a set of values learnt from home. By the way private schools have problems too, but they are not usually academic ones. Incidently I live in Telegraph Hill and I think it is great that Haberdashers is linked to Monson, local schools for local kids.

[James]

Agree strongly with that Canning - Ofsted does not tell the whole story and can be misleading. Some schools are better than others at playing the system and showing themselves in their best light. Also who's to say your child is automatically better off in a school that gets better results, especially given the fact that upbringing has been proved to be the biggest factor in children's academic progress? I also think the headteacher's vision is vital as this permeates the whole school.

As for Haberdashers, if I were being cynical I would point out that there are several deserving primaries closer than Monson. By federating with it, in a few years Monson's intake will become more affluent & middle-class as parents move into its catchment (which is predominantly private - not social housing). So Haberdashers will still be able to cream off the more academically-inclined kids while simulataneously claiming that it has 'improved standards' and is 'serving the local community.' Very clever!

If Haberdashers really wanted to serve its community why not just operate a conventional catchment system like other local schools? The complex admissions procedure looks very much like selection by stealth to me and many others.

[inglesa68]

Canning Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Welcome back to the UK! I am not a parent but I am

> a teacher, please be cautious in using OFSTED

> reports, at best they only give an out of date

> snap shot of a school, at worst they are very

> misleading. Schools, both primary and secondary

> change very quickly. Don't forget that by joining

> a school your child/children become part of a

> dynamic process.Visit any school you are

> considering but bear in mind in some schools staff

> turnover can be rapid and this affects the

> character of the school greatly. If it makes you

> feel any better schools are not as important as

> people think, in my opinion, students spend a lot

> of time not in school and already arrive even in

> primary school with a huge amount of knowledge and

> a set of values learnt from home. By the way

> private schools have problems too, but they are

> not usually academic ones. Incidently I live in

> Telegraph Hill and I think it is great that

> Haberdashers is linked to Monson, local schools

> for local kids.

Thanks Canning, more valuable information to help us in our quest!! Interesting what you say about Ofsteds because if you cant trust them what can you trust? Can you tell me when the next reports are due?

I am also of the opinion that schools are not the most important thing with regard to our children's overall 'life education', whereas my other half leans more towards the fact that they are, especially private ones. Think he would gladly send them to Alleyns without a second thought, though i am slowly turning him around! Would prefer more of a social/racial mix for our children, and perhaps more of an 'all-round' experience than they may get at Alleyns. Perhaps Im being stupid?

My eldest one is not so academic and wants to be an actor so interested in looking at Kingsdale for him. Not sure he would pass the Alleyns exam. The other two are more by the way of all rounders. Gosh, who would know all of this would become so difficult when you start out having babies!! I would also like to be in Dulwich as not originally from there but loved it when we lived there and still have friends there.

Regards x x

[Canning]

Yeah Dulwich is great. I have a friend who sends her eldest boy to Alleyns, she is happy enough with it but I am appalled by the price! I taught in a school in East London for 14 years which most parents in Dulwich would consider totally unacceptable for their children. I loved it and learnt a great deal about all manner of things. I really think my students gained a lot from the mix of cultures and religions. And lots of them went on to do A levels and some went to excellent Universities. Ofsted reports are due at semi regular intervals you can read all their reports on line if you go to their website.Trust your observations about the schools you visit, I also recommend talking to teenagers who have just left. Despite the poor publicity I have always found teenagers to be very helpful and often truthful. When you visit schools ask the students lots of questions about behaviour and homework and stuff but also observe them, are they happy? Are they on time to class? Do they speak with confidence? Do try to shift your husband from the fee paying route, seriously I think it is both a waste of money and a missed opportunity.

[toast]

East Dulwich Primary School Places facebook page might be a useful thing to join?

[inglesa68]

thats funny as i was just searching for that page this morning but i cant find it! Any suggestions? Will have another go now x

[inglesa68]

Hi James

Its not just about the results for us, even though of course they are one of most important things we are looking for in a school. Its about the complete picture, ie, racial mix, social mix, headteacher's ethos, academic results etc. Hopefully, most parents are intelligent enough to look at the Ofsted results and get some sort of picture of how the school is performing, and then 'use' them to assist them in their choice, which is what we intend to do.

I dont know anything about Haberdasher's and have never heard of Monson but will Google it now. Just had a quick look but cant seem to find a proper website? Its in SE14 - dont even know where that is! lol. Any info re Monson welcomed but not about the Haberdasher/Monson debate as thats completely lost on me at the moment.

[James]

SE14 is New Cross. The full name is Haberdashers' Aske's Hatcham College, and I believe Monson has already been absorbed into the school so may no longer exist as a separate entity.

Whatever your views about Haberdashers', the consensus appears to be that it gets great results and the kids seem to be very happy there - but it's a lottery (literally) trying to get into it.

On my visit I liked it but the head's speech left me a bit cold. I found Alleyn's a bit snooty and elitist; my favourite were Colfe's and Dunstan's (both private I'm afraid) - both seemed warm and down-to-earth with a happy, more diverse range of kids. I didn't consider Charter and Kingsdale as they were out of our catchment unfortunately.

[inglesa68]

Hi James

Can I ask if you are only looking at the privates?;-) Would you have gone for Charter or Kingsdale even if they were in your catchment? It interests me as my husband would like to try the privates but i am steering clear at the moment.

Where are Dunstans and the other one (sorry, lost the reply!)

x

[Msgee]

Kingsdale hasn't got a catchment as such. Most of the kids seem to be from Peckham/Brixton/Dulwich/Nunhead etc.

I think the reasoning behind it not having a catchment is that the area immediately surrounding the school is very posh- this would necessarily advantage more priveliged kids so they cast their net a bit wider to give other kids a chance in what would otherwise be "black holes" for secondary ed eg Nunhead, ED.

(should think that also a lot of parents in the immediate area wouldn't dream of checking out Kingsdale cos of its old reputation...their loss imo!)

[minder]

There's been other threads about Kingsdale and The Charter not too long ago. Type it in the search box.

[toast]

Having teething trouble. Try this

East Dulwich Primary School Places facebook group

[James]

Hi Inglesa

At the time I went for Haberdashers' and Forest Hill Boys... not a chance with either!

So reluctantly went private but so far (fingers crossed) we haven't looked back.

[Townleygreen]

I see James found Alleyns "snooty and elitist" compared to Dunstans and Colfes.

My experience of having had my 3 attend the school (the last left 2 years ago) and even more recent experience of a friend who has also 3 kids at the place, is that it certainly is hard to get in (that may make it elitist I guess) but that once you are there, it is a really lovely happy school. The children certainly treat each other very tolerantly indeed, and seemingly, all different types of personality are universally respected.

No way is it snooty. My childrens' friends from the school were just normal bright South London kids.

In addition, it offers a vast range of things outside the exam curriculum. No way - by the way - is it an exam factory, though the results are superb at all levels. There are no such things as boys or girls subjects either - equal numbers of each gender do subjects like physics (sometimes seen as a boys subject) and french (girls' subject?).

Some schools are co-ed, but few are exactly 50/50 boys and girls like Alleyns.

As I said, it offers so much outside the classroom, be it sport, drama (wait till you see the brand new theatre), art, music (they have a fantastically high standard of musical performance), CCF, DofE, Field Centre in the Peak District that all y7 spend time at in their first year, etc etc.

It is expensive though, but I would not put either Colfes or Dunstans in the same division as Alleyns, which is definitely in the premiership.

[James]

Ha ha!

>>It is expensive though, but I would not put either Colfes or Dunstans in the same division as Alleyns, which is definitely in the premiership.

Scuppering your argument a bit by making such a snooty and elitist comment! (Incidentally I completely stand by my remarks).

In my experience the Colfe's and Dunstan's kids are more grounded and down-to-earth compared to Alleyn's moneyed little darlings. And incidentally I attended one of the top selective grammars in the country - which regularly beats Alleyn's on GCSE and A-level results.

But I wouldn't send my son there as I don't think it's a great school - I think schools should be more than "premier league" exam factories.

[Townleygreen]

James, PLEASE take the trouble to READ what I had written:

As I said, it offers so much outside the classroom, be it sport, drama (wait till you see the brand new theatre), art, music (they have a fantastically high standard of musical performance), CCF, DofE, Field Centre in the Peak District that all y7 spend time at in their first year, etc etc.

James: I think schools should be more than "premier league" exam factories.

DOH!

What exactly is your evidence for saying "Alleyn's moneyed little darlings" ? At least I presented some evidence from 6 children's recent experience there. What is yours based on? One visit that you referred to?

As for moneyed - the difference in the fees is not very great - taken for the coming year:

Alleyns: ?4479, St D 4220, Colfe's 4044 (figs per term) So St D's are only slightly less monyed darlings than Alleyns!

My evidence for the premier league comment (which was meant facetiously) was the league table positions in recent years.

Anyway, if Colfe's and St D's are so wonderful, how come St D's has to advertise again and again just to find punters to fill its places each year? Alleyns has 600 plus applicants for 85 places. And neither Colfes nor St D's convinces enough parents of girls to want to go to either school, so they don't have anything like an even balance between the genders.

I have nothing against Colfes or St D's - they are both really nice schools, but please don't imagine they rank anywhere close to Alleyns.

[James]

>>please don't imagine they rank anywhere close to Alleyns

"Rank" - on what? The league tables? Dear oh dear, you keep tripping yourself up and revealing your obsession with results. Is it a mere coincidence that Alleyn's has so many high-profile alumni (children of celebrities and the like)?

I think you'll find that yes, the parents ARE on average substantially wealthier than Colfe's or Dunstan's parents, many of whom scrimp and save to pay the fees. Getting in to Alleyn's has a lot to do with having the right connections. None of which bothers me as I prefer a more inclusive, down-to-earth environment.