An American NHS

[louisiana]

Keef Wrote:

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> Sean, surely then the problem is simply that in

> America you are Democrat or Republican, right or

> left.

Or perhaps mid-right and far right?

That means that these 2 groups have to cater

> for everyone, so unfortunately, you get the

> opposition supporting this kind of nonsense. If it

> were here, the main opposition would for the most

> part, oppose it, leaving the loons of the far

> right parties to get stuck in.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I wouldn't say everyone in America was left or right - the Democrats would be considered far more to the right than comparable parties in Europe for example - but in any case, all governments in elected democracis have to cater for the electorate as a whole, including all of the people that voted against them . But opposition to the government programmes by the main opposition (and lets not forget the likes of Fox news etc) don't usually take this kind of form

Speaking of Fox news - owned by Murdoch, he'll be keeping an eye on this. If Obama wins, expect the Sun and the Times to be more NHS friendly - if he loses, expect a strong campaign by those papers to "shame" the NHS

[Keef]

I was being simplistic with the left and right. My point was quite simply that it's a two party place. Here we have the mentalist parties for this kind of thing.

[Fear 'n boozin]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> But if the NHS in the UK could be created on the

> back of a financially crippling war, surely it can

> be done in the US?

I'm pretty the NHS was paid for by the Yanks (the irony!). Anyway, the Economists thoughts on what's happening in the States, as I'm far to weary to have any myself:

http://www.economist.com/world/unitedstates/displayStory.cfm?story_id=14248420&source=features_box1

[SteveT]

It's the richest resourced country in the world and the way they take care of their poor is bordering on negligent.

I don't believe there will be an NHS in the US because they do not have that amount of money, they are in the same boat as us, SS Skint.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Cheers for the link Crystal Fear

But it is a rubbish article isn't it? Like most Economist spiel

The line that stood out for me was

"and it becomes clear that there is much genuine anger and concern among ordinary people "

This is becoming a mantra which justifies any kind of unreasonble behaviour: "I am an ordinary person and I am angry and there are lots like me"

What I hope Obama does is to stand up to these idiots and say "you are angry, you are ordinary... AND????"

keef - your point about extremist in this country is well made, but if it means these same extremists have a legitimate voice in 2 party USA then isn't that what the worry is. They aren't sidelined as extremist. They have a voice and power?

I have long looked forward to New Labour being chucked out - but now as the reality dawns, and the Tories reveal themselves I am less inclined to do anything which will give them power. That will make me an accessory to more Labour shite but there isn';t anything they are chalked down to do which I don't believe the Tories would do anyway (including ID cards, regardless of what they say ) but there is much the Tories would do worse...

NHS, The Tories and the future

[helena handbasket]

As a Canadian I'm watching this unfold with a bit of a chuckle. We have had the U.S. pick apart our healthcare system for years, to the point where most Canadians just shrug and smirk at the knowledge that our system is so spectacularly superior to theirs it's not even worth getting into a debate about it (see previously mentioned Michael Moore movie Sicko). They have the worst system in the western world and everyone knows that except them. Soooooo, I wouldn't get all panties in a knot over it because next week they will move on to comparing their system to Sweden or France and most Americans won't even remember the NHS.

If it makes you feel any better, since living here I've had many people suggest that the Canadian system was the same as the U.S. (because after all, as many people have pointed out, aren't they basically the same thing?) I'm no fan of American self-absorption, but mis-information and ignorance about "other" is not really any better on this side of the pond.

[Keef]

keef - your point about extremist in this country is well made, but if it means these same extremists have a legitimate voice in 2 party USA then isn't that what the worry is. They aren't sidelined as extremist. They have a voice and power?

Well yes, I thought that was pretty much the point I was making.

[Nero]

Why would the US want an NHS like ours? On paper it sounds good, but in practice, it's far from great. I am glad we have it, but I would prefer it to be much better, without political interference, recalcitrant nurses (yes, they exist - don't come down hard on me for not collectively worshipping 'our Angels'), aloof consultants, overworked and under-experienced GPs and ward doctors, sclerotic or overly-active management, and - this is important - a user base that sometimes does really very little to help itself. The default setting now for a large minority of Brits (and those who want to become Brits) is overweight, under-exercised, badly-nourished and borderline alcohol-misusing. In the US, it's at least equally as bad, plus there is the neurotic - though perhaps understandable - preoccupation with physical and mental ailments. How could an NHS survive over there?

[SeanMacGabhann]

So that 50 million or so people without insurance don't end up with mega-thousand bills ?

In any case the question isn't "does the US want an NHS" - it's why do opponents of any kind of free healthcare have to brand people as "evil and orwellian"

[louisiana]

In the US, medical bills are the primary cause of personal bankruptcy.

In the US, breadwinners live in fear of not being able to pay the medical bills for their seriously ill children, and millions take certain jobs only because of the medical insurance benefits.

And they think *we* have a problem.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Which isn't to discount Nero's concerns COMPLETELY to be fair - there is a valid argument to be had about how resources get managed etc -

But yeah friends of mine in America have either expressed how fearful they are of "losing" insurance or, in a most recent case, insurance didn't cover an illness so bang 50 grand of life savings - gone

[helena handbasket]

The problem with the NHS is that those who are rich and /or powerful enough can move on to private care when it all gets a bit too "real". When everyone is in the same system, when the homeless are in the same position as the billionaires and the Prime Minister, you better believe it raises the bar. When an MP is sitting for six hours in A and E with his 82 year old mother like everyone else, things improve. When the people who make these policies and decisions have to live with the result with everyone else it makes things happen.

But I would take the NHS over the US system any day.

A huge factor that people don't realize is that the largest expense for doctors in the US is malpractice insurance. My uncle is a nuerologist in Florida, and while it is a risky and difficult area of medicine he claims that the bulk of the cost to run his practice is the hundreds of thousands YEARLY spent on this. And he's not even a surgeon. Another huge expense is health insurance for his own staff, because the lucky ones have employer paid insurance. Clearly the only real winners in the whole mess are the insurance companies, who wield tremendous power in Washington. Essential services do not function properly if there is profit to be earned somewhere.......

And don't even get me started on education!

[helena handbasket]

Nero you're also quite right!

[Keef]

Problem with these send that do go private, is that should something go wrong, hey run to an NHS hospital anyway! What shocked me was that SOME consultants use NHS admin staff to do their private paperwork! Sorry, off topic, but just wanted to say it.

[Brendan]

I just read this from the New Scientist. The mind boggles it truly does.

??IN A more rational parallel universe, the debate about healthcare in the US could have focused on quality-adjusted life years and the extent to which it is helpful for insurers to cover heroic, almost invariably futile - and immensely profitable - attempts to extend life. Instead, we got what students of the rhetoric surrounding science might appreciate as a startling case study: the transformation of the UK's National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) into "The Death Panel" - because it entertains just such a discussion.

Feedback was most puzzled, though, by the now-notorious intervention of Investor's Business Daily, which concluded that "scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the UK, where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man... is essentially worthless".

How did they work that one out? Could it be, we first wondered, that they had read Hawking's book A Brief History of Time to the end? The book's argument hinges on the notion of imaginary time - normal time (we paraphrase) multiplied by the square root of -1.

David Jeffery came across a publication entitled Emigrating Abroad in the bookseller W. H. Smith. He wants to know whether there is a sister book for people who emigrate somewhere else

And the NHS is beset by time: government targets for waiting time, treatment time, appointment time... You can see how its administration could go into angry meltdown when confronted by Hawkins's notion.

But it seems not. In Washington DC to receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom, Hawking said - through his famous voice synthesiser - that "I wouldn't be here today if it were not for the NHS". How did the IBD website respond? Wading past its plugs for courses in special methods for trading stocks and shares, we find that the notorious quote is missing, replaced with: "This version corrects the original editorial which implied that physicist Stephen Hawking, a professor at the University of Cambridge, did not live in the UK."

Clearly technology is to blame. They had assumed Hawking was a US citizen, safe from the horrors of socialised medicine. The whole hoo-ha arose, we confidently surmise, because of his voice synthesiser's accent.?

[louisiana]

People in the US invariably assume everyone is in the US, and probably around the corner from themselves. Just take a look at most websites.

I get so many invitations, every week, to events in downtown nowheresville, which fail to mention which state they are in, let alone which country or continent.

[SeanMacGabhann]

that Jon Stewart interview where neo-con Bill Kristol admits government healthcare is BETTER than insurance companies

doh

[shoshntosh]

dear sean

i am thrilled to have discovered this thread today (after several weeks on holiday). i am so infuriated by so many of the views of people in the US that i actually wrote an OpEd on the piece with a friend at the Washington Post (i'll send it to you separately if you wish). as someone who has lived extensively in both countries, i feel well placed to compare the healthcare. i can assure you that the NHS does just as good a job -- in some ways better, and in some ways worse.

on the whole though, i think the point (best made in the Independent earlier this week) is that an entire swathe of the US population (the "right") is just plain mean. in every definition of the word. unfortunately my own family, most of whom live in texas, fall into this category. their political views, including those on healthcare (and most certainly on Obama) are mean-spirited, selfish, greedy, and often utterly devoid of any kind of compassion.

that anyone in this day and age would consider postal service and education a god-given right BUT NOT HEALTHCARE is completely bonkers in my view.

i spent 30 years of my life in america. i was born there. love it. and dream of going back someday. but make no mistake, most american republicans hate poor people. plain and simple.

would that it were otherwise...

shosh

[Brendan]

shoshntosh Wrote:

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> their

> political views, including those on healthcare

> (and most certainly on Obama) are mean-spirited,

> selfish, greedy, and often utterly devoid of any

> kind of compassion.

> that anyone in this day and age would consider

> postal service and education a god-given right BUT

> NOT HEALTHCARE is completely bonkers in my view.

> i spent 30 years of my life in america. i was born

> there. love it. and dream of going back someday.

> but make no mistake, most american republicans

> hate poor people. plain and simple.

I don?t think this is restricted to the ?right? in the US. I have the misfortune of working with a number of prominent supporters and members of the Tory party (you know the one who are going to be the next government) and all these things apply to many them in equal measure.

Not all mind you. There are a few who are just delusional.

Anyway I hear them discussing with glee how they will be able to slash NHS and education spending and launch plans to get rid of state pensions all with the ultimate outcome of handing more power and leverage over the people to the private sector.

[iaineasy]

My fiancee is an American. She has had the benefit of health insurance paid for by her fathers employers, she is currently studying for her Phd in pharmacology, she is whole heartedly in favour of health reforms in the US, although there are problems in our health system it is a system that is open to anyone in need of life saving treatment and that is such a positive thing.I am very proud of that and so is she. It seems to me the bashing of the Uk health system by the yanks is mainly down to ignorance by the main part of the population, and greed by the massive healthcare lobby who make trillions of dollars a year and who are activley encouraging the NHS bashing by feeding disinformation to the majority of the populas who know no better and it is in there political interest to do so.

I personally hope the reforms get through although it is doubtful that they will with such powerful opposition, and I hope Obama doesn't lose his post or popularity with the common person because of what I believe is a genuine belief on his part that its for the common good and betterment of the American populas.