Primary school places 2010

[iamyamyam]

Hiya clareC,

The admissions book (available on the southwark website and nurseries, libraries etc) lists the furthest distance form the school that a child was admitted last year. I imagine this will vary from year to year and also depend on if the school had a buldge this year but it could give you an idea

[Smiler]

Is it the case that you have virtually no chance of getting into a school in East Dulwich if you live closer to another one?

[ClareC]

And if you apply to the closest and don't get in do you really get sent to the othe side of Peckham? That would make it impossible to work!!! 3 miles in London is 1 hour plus travel!!

Thanks Iamyamyam for your tip, will take a look at that.

[Fuschia]

Smiler Wrote:

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> Is it the case that you have virtually no chance

> of getting into a school in East Dulwich if you

> live closer to another one?

yes

[Fuschia]

ClareC Wrote:

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> How close do you need to live to a school to be

> sure you will get a place there?

heber this year - 611m for reception (walking distance)

distances will lessen when they move to crow flies

the nursery took only siblings

[The Nappy Lady]

ClareC,

I gather that we are at the start of a number of 'bulge' years, with increased numbers of children needing school places, but that this will drop off again at some point in the next few years...(sorry can't remember how many years it is predicted for....or where I read it, but probably on here, and sure someone else will know). If this is the case things will probably be resolved by the time you need a school place, and you do sound very close to Heber so am sure you will be fine.

Use common sense and apply for the schools closest to you if you possibly can, and also, make sure you put 4 choices down on your admission form when the time comes, you are more likely to end up with a school that is 'the other side of Peckham' if you only put down 2 choices and leave the other 2 options blank...if you do that then if the council can't fit you into either of your choices they can then put you wherever they like!

Hope this helps, try not to worry, plenty of time for things to resolve themselves in your case.....

Molly

[toast]

My initial concern was that the council was not taking this thing seriously and calling it a blip. Thanks to the scrutiny meeting that is no longer the case, the council have redone their sums and made plans. ED has plenty of good schools, our old weakest link GG will be unrecognisable in a few years due to changes in leadership, staffing, intake! not to mention the extra funding and parents who are championing the school. The strengths of several other schools are now being recognised. This in itself could resolve things (some of GG's intake came from as far as Honor oak!). Offers are such a long time away maybe its time to come off red alert panic and go back to everyday worry.

[FionaC]

Just wanted to let you all know that the draft Scrutiny report is now available on the council website. We'll be finalising it at our Scrutiny meeting next Monday. I hope we've covered all the key issues, if anyone wants to suggest any changes please post them here and I'll raise them at the meeting.

After the report is agreed our recommendations will be considered by the Executive, most likely at the Executive meeting on 24 November.

Fiona

Cllr Fiona Colley

Chair of Overview & Scrutiny Committee

Labour Member for Nunhead Ward

PS Gee, shucks - thank you Toast :))

toast Wrote:

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> She and Fiona Colley rock.

[sb]

.

[VikkiM]

The admissions page is here - http://www.southwark.gov.uk/YourServices/educationandlearning/Admissions/

And the primary and nursery admissions book is here - http://www.southwark.gov.uk/Uploads/FILE_43650.pdf

Summary of this year's admissions (2009/2010 intake) is on page 24

[Cora]

Find the table on page 25 really frustrating and holding false information. Most schools for round here don't show the distance from school offered a place and for Heber (for example) has two ** which if you look at the key means anyone who applied on time got offered a place...this just isn't true...I applied on time, am not that far away and yet am 27th on the list. Am I reading the key wrong or is the information false? Lewisham give you all this information on your rejection letter (which softens the blow somewhat as you have all the figures).

[clux]

i find the tables really frustrating too as they only show the distances given when the initial places were given out. i know that the distances have then changed when places have been given out at a later date - a school i applied to and which i have subsequently been offered a place at several months later has their distance at less than 300m but i live 500m away

[Smiler]

With respect to the Scrutiny Committee's paper, there seems to be a no acknowledgement of the varying quality of schools at the present time.

The Council clearly - and understandably - has an agenda to fill all places at all schools, and for children to go to "poor" schools rather than to new, bulge classes in "good" schools (which cost a lot to set up, as do surplus places in the "poor" schools). The theory being that everyone being forced to go to their local school will lead to improvement everywhere, benefiting the whole community etc etc.

Some parents may be optimistic about school improvement, which is fair enough. But others (myself included) will want to send their child/ren to a school that is already considered by inspectors to be good or outstanding, rather than one that is merely "satisfactory" or in special measures for poor performance.

The paper states somewhere that two-thirds of primaries in the area (Southwark / East Dulwich and surrounding area?) have been recognised by Ofsted as good or outstanding, but this means that a third of schools are not. There are references to "improving" schools, but in whose judgment are they improving? In the case of Goose Green, for example, have Oftsed judged that it has improved and taken it out of special measures? If not, it is simply an assertion of improvement.

The paper doesn't acknowledge this properly: it implies that all schools in the area are fine - or at least improving - and that there is simply a PR exercise for some less popular schools to win over narrow-minded parents. Surely it should be acknowledged that, at least for the present, there are satisfactory / poor schools and insufficient places at good/outstanding schools for the children of East Dulwich? Why pretend that there is no problem as long as there are bums on (local) seats?

There is also a discussion about "preferred" schools (i.e. "five or six"): how about some transparency about how many applicants received their first or second choice of school?

[Coach Beth]

You make an assumption that because a school was judged good by Ofted several or in some cases many years ago, it would still be judged good today by Ofted. For example, Goose Green wasn't inspected for about five or six years - and obvisously, things went wrong but no one knew. Dog Kennel Hill went down in the last assessment as did St. John's - there were many, many years between the Ofted inspection. Personally, I'm happier sending my child to a school which is constantly being assessed than a school which might be sliding but no one realises this! Again, I point to Heber - a school that went into special measures and now is one of the most popular schools - why? Because the school was forced to turn around, raise standards, etc.

I would also like to suggest that if some of the schools which have been assessed at good or outstanding schools have their resources stretched through having year after year of budge classes, how can they possibly stay that way? I think it's an invitation for disaster myself - and it will be interesting to re-visit this whole discussion in 6 years and see which schools are the ones that are considered outstanding and which aren't.

[CT Wac]

This is getting off the subject, perhaps a different thread?

[Cora]

Don't think this is off topic...one of the problems with Primary school places 2010 is that there are places available but just not in the handful of schools that have already turned their fortunes round with hard work and good partnership between school and parents. Surely the important thing is that money and resources are spent ensuring that all schools are decent, instead of putting unreasonable demands on those schools deemed as good that are working hard to keep their standards up.

[Smiler]

I don't think it is off-topic at all CT-Wac - my comments relate to the Council paper and Coach Beth is raising a related issue in response to that.

It would be interesting to see statistics on the number of school places in the area and the proportion of these places in the various Ofsted categories of school (with the date of the latest inspection, to acknowledge Beth's point).

Expanding a school with bulge classes would not necessarily make it more difficult to sustain high standards. Suspect that a lot of parents seeking a school place for their children would much prefer this to having a place in an under-performing school. Funding follows the children, so the schools with the extra places would receive extra money to pay for teachers etc etc. The trouble is that the Council would, as I understand it, additionally have to subsidise the under-subscribed schools, stretching resources.

[Fuschia]

I don't think there is really an issue about extra classes stretching the management of a primary, if anything the extra cash means economies of scale and the ability to put more funds into the leadership and management of specialist areas such as Art and Music along with library facilities and ICt etc... the problem is one of space... Some schools can accomodate a bulge class in one year... but take in an additional form of entry, each time, an extra classroom is required and few schools could accomodate that without the use of mobile classrooms. Space for playing, dining etc is also an issue when a school expands.

[Smiler]

To go totally off-topic, I spent my first five years of primary education in a portakabin - good times! A highlight was when one of the boys set it on fire using a magnifying glass in a science lesson.

It was the Thatcherite era of giant class sizes and there were 35 kids, one teacher and no teaching assistants.

Re. lack of playground space there were also a lot of "do not cross this line" notices in the playground - too tempting for kids! A lot of the primaries round here seem to have too-small playgrounds, which is a shame. At least we are near parks though.

[Coach Beth]

At the end of the day, we all have to make the best choices we can with the knowledge we get from a range of sources - looking at all the variables not just Ofsted, but also meeting teachers, seeing schools, and meeting students. As Cora says, ALL our local schools should be supported to improve and then also maintain standards - so that all local schools serve every child in the community just as well.

[hoipolloi]

I would just like to echo Beth's comments above about the importance of going to see schools, meet the head, speak to other parents etc before writing off a school based purely on an Ofsted judgment. I am not for one minute suggesting that parents are being narrow-minded by taking Ofsted reports into account - obviously, Ofsted has its part to play. However I speak from bitter experience when I say that it is a big mistake to rule schools out based solely on Ofsted reports. I applied for 4 local schools for my daughters (at the time all were Ofsted rated "good" which is no longer the case for some of them) and wasn't offered a place at any of them. If I had not foolishly ruled out Goose Green based solely on its Ofsted report I could have saved myself a great deal of stress and anxiety. My daughters couldn't be happier there and have learned so much! The teaching staff I have encountered are brilliant and there is a warm and happy atmosphere in school. But of course I'm not an Ofsted inspector, just a parent...

[toast]

Totally agree, my experience of GG is really positive, my son loves the nursery, not seen round the school but reception is also great. Living a mile away from GG we may well not get in!

Don't forget that this thread was initially about the basic shortage of 'local' school places, not the quality of schools.

We have somehow been offered a nursery palace at one of the nearer 'popular' schools, this would solve travel problem for my mum but would be too disruptive as we are very unlikely to get into that school. However there is a real chance that my son might not even get to stay in a school two bus rides away in special measures. Im sure it will all sort itself out eventually, just a bit frustrating as have no idea how to minimise disruption, the situation is really silly.

[Smiler]

Toast, understand that locality is important, but surely it is impossible to talk about school places without taking quality (however assessed) into account?

[toast]

Your welcome to start a thread on this topic, with over 222 posts this one may be losing its focus.

[Coach Beth]

Yes, agreed - this should move to a new thread. The orginal thread was about lack of local school places with children having to travel very far for a primary school place. As I understood it, the parents who started this thread like toast - where concerned that their children didn't get a place at ANY school inthe local area and had to travel a distance of several bus journeys. This is turning into a different debate.