Primary school places 2010

[Fuschia]

JBARBER Wrote:

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> After January many more applications came in -

> late applications. For the Dulwich area 304

> applications made on time and another 45 late

> applications.

>

>

But it wasn't the late applicants who were offered schools in New Cross, was it? Putting aside the 45 late applicants, how were those 304 applicants fitted in to schools? How many places are there in ED? 90 at Goodrich, 60 at Heber... etc

Many families weren't offered any of their choices, and only got in to a school in the vicinity (and then, often in peckham Rye, rather than ED) by the skin of their teeth, later in the Summer.

How were those 304 original applicants dealt with? What schools were they offered? Did the Council not twig that offering familes a school several miles away, that they hadn't chosen, was going to cause upset? And if they didn't realise, why on earth not?!

[bawdy-nan]

James, isn't doesn't the council have a statutory duty to provide sufficient nursery places for all 3 & 4 year olds?

If this is the case then in order to make the assessment of how many nursery places is sufficient you presumably would have to have an accurate figure for the number of 3&4 year olds in each area. This would therefore make the constant insistence that the council were taken by surprise by the number of children likely to make applications this year utter nonsense.

[toast]

Just found out that based on last years intake we are unlikely to get into any of our 7 nearest schools (thought it was just the nearest 6!). Arse!

Edited to add

It isn't a blooming 'blip'!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/apr/20/schools-shortage-places-credit-crunch

[James Barber]

Hi Bawdy nan,

I don't believe Southwark has a statutory duty to provide universal nursery provision for all 3 & 4 year olds.

Vast majority of nursery and childminding places are provided privately. Over the period in question a number have gone into administration and some failed. So no clear correlation that nursery provision had increased giving clues that primary school application would increase and so many would be made so late.

Talking to two local estate agents. They say people can't buy which means they are not selling and moving out of the area. This is good news for stability in the area. But I think we've seen the implications of this in sudden step increase in primary school demand.

Will it continue once the housing market starts moving again?

[Fuschia]

toast Wrote:

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> Just found out that based on last years intake we

> are unlikely to get into any of our 7 nearest

> schools (thought it was just the nearest 6!).

> Arse!

>

How did you find that out? Have you got info about the radius for each school?

[FionaC]

Hi All

The agenda for the Scrutiny meeting on Monday 12th is now up on the council website, including the report from the Education Department. I'm pressing officers to supply more detail on the crucial GLA school roll projections, most likely that would be at the meeting itself if at all.

As I'm chairing the meeting I'm not going to make comments on the content of the report before then, but I will be reading this thread and I will also pick up question suggestions to put to the officers at the meeting.

Agenda

Report from Southwark's Education Department

Hope to see you on 12th,

Fiona

Cllr Fiona Colley

Chair of Overview & Scrutiny Committee

Labour Member for Nunhead Ward

[Smiler]

Cllr Colley,

Is it a public meeting, where the public can participate, or is it a committee meeting that the public are invited to observe?

With respect to the paper, I haven't followed this closely, but the paragraph below doesn't seem to reflect the experience of people posting on this forum (this year and last year).

It would be helpful for the paper to provide some facts and figures, rather than simply making statements. As Fuschia has highlighted, it would be helpful to have much more factual information about the on-time applications, including how many applications were received for each school; and how many places were offered; and how many people got their 1st, 2nd choices.

Also, the paper does not seem to discuss quality matters, which is a key factor for parents. It is not just about getting into a local school, but a good local school.

"In Southwark the 2009 primary admissions round was characterised by an

unprecedented degree of concern about reception class places from residents

in the East Dulwich area. This problem had not been anticipated on the basis

of projections available at the time. After the first round of applications a very

small number of concerns emerged and these were mostly addressed in the

final round of allocation. However, a very large number of late applications were received for this area and gave rise to the need to add places at short notice."

[bawdy-nan]

Dear Cllr Barber - you might want to take a quick glance at the Childcare Bill in which the local authority statutory duty is set out - here;s an extract. Its quite easy to find I asked Professor Google... you are obliged to know whether there is a sufficiency of free nursery places available. Inorder to do thios you surely must have to have made an assesment of how many 3 & 4 year olds there were, hence my confusion about Southwatrk's bafflement at the primary school place problem ... or perhpas you just didn't bother with that pesky statutory duty thing ...

7 Duty to secure prescribed early years provision free of charge

(1) An English local authority must secure that early years provision of a

prescribed description is available free of charge for such periods as may be

prescribed for each young child in their area who?

(a) has attained such age as may be prescribed, but

(b) is under compulsory school age.

(2) In discharging their duty under subsection

You are also most definitely required to know whethe rthe provision of childcare is sufficient(see below). I'm slightly concerned that as a councillor you seem to be unaware of the statutory duty of the local authority you run ...

11 Duty to assess childcare provision

(1) An English local authority must prepare assessments of the sufficiency of the

provision of childcare (whether or not by them) in their area (?childcare

assessments?).

(2) The first childcare assessment must be prepared before the end of the period of

one year beginning with the commencement of this section.

(3) Subsequent childcare assessments must be prepared at intervals not exceeding

three years.

(4) The authority must keep a childcare assessment prepared by them under

review until the childcare assessment is superseded by a further childcare

assessment.

(5) Regulations may make provision requiring a childcare assessment?

(a) to deal with prescribed matters or be prepared according to prescribed

criteria;

(b) to be in the prescribed form;

© to be published in the prescribed manner.

(6) In preparing a childcare assessment and keeping it under review, an English

local authority must?

(a) consult such persons, or persons of such a description, as may be

prescribed, and

(b) have regard to any guidance given from time to time by the Secretary

of State.

(7) Subsection (5) of section 6 applies

Here's a handy link for you http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/pdf/uksi_20081724_en.pdf

[toast]

Dear FionaC

Lovely so see some common sense rule. Fingers crossed next year goes more smoothly than this one.

[orchard]

Cllr Colley,

You refer to the agenda for the scrutiny meeting being up on the Council website. Where might I find this as have looked and it is not obvious? Please could you also confirm the time and venue for the meeting ASAP.

[James Barber]

Hi Orchard,

Southwark council OSC report for 12 October meeting

[James Barber]

Hi bawdy nan,

I'm told Southwark Council provides over 2,000 services and I wont pretend to know the law related to all those. Nor would you expect me to. We have 5,000 council officers to run such services under the policies set by councillors.

The primary school places appears, from looking at the London Councils website, a pan London issue.

The GLA stats purchased by Southwark and most other London councils were issued in January and subsequently revised upwards 3 times. Unprecedented. No change in nursery school places had occured other than a handful going bust. So that doesn't appear from the information I have, to have indicated a looming Primary School admissions problem.

I've posted that 15% extra late applications were received after the January deadline which I believe to also be unprecedented. The extra bulge class provision is significantly less than the number of late applications.

Something profound has occurred. The most profound cause I can think of is the recession. The scale of the recession is unprecendented sine the great 1930's depression and became apparent after school classes were agreed in 2008 hence the need for a bulge class.

BUT I look forward to hearing more evidence at Monday's OSC meeting.

[bawdy-nan]

Hi James

Of course I wouldn't expect you to know all of the law as it relates to Local Authority Statutory Duty. However I would expect the officers of each relevant department to know that law and to act on it. Perhaps you should ask for their calculations pertaining to the provision of nursery places. in 2006, 7 & 8. I'm not suggesting that there is a hidden problem of missing nursery places rather that as Soutwhark is obliged to make accurate estimates of 3 and 4 year olds who would be eligible for free nursery places it is false to suggest that this primary school crisis should have come as a surprise. Private provision is a red herring - all chidlren are eligible for free nursery places - Southwark is not obliged to provide all of it but it MUST make sure that there are sufficient places avaialable.

It strikes me as a little odd, however, that you wouldn't wnat to be fully briefed on the law as it relates to this issue which I assume has been taking up rather a lot of your time given the strength of feeling in the community you serve. As I mentioned in my previous post a brief chat with professor google can be a very enlightening thing.

Either Southwark DID know how many 4 and 5 year olds would be expecting to take up primary school places or it failed to deliver its statutory duty to make an accurate assesment of nursery provision for 3 & 4 year olds. Which is it - incompetence and disregard of the law or blatant lying?

Whether or not there have been similar problems elsewhere is neither here nor there - Southwark should have known and should have done something about it. The wriggling going on right now is outrageous.

As regards the effect of the recession as I recall it is only in the last 2 or 3 quarters that we have been in recession. 4 or 5 years ago we weren't in the midst of a financial gloom - thus amusing and reassuring ourselves with reproduction...(!)

The recession hasn't had an impact on the take up of fee paying schools either. As far as I am aware the private schools are also full. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

[FionaC]

Orchard - click here for the details of the meeting

Smiler - it is a committee meeting, but there certainly will be public participation. Basically I want to allow as much participation as possible whilst also ensuring we get through the business and reach some conclusions by the end of the meeting.

We will take brief deputations from parents and local cllrs at the beginning to tell the committee about their experiences this year, concerns for next yr and what they'd like to see happen (it would be best if the parents could agree on a couple of parents to speak on behalf of all as we only have max 3hrs and as each deputation tends to take 5 - 10mins if we have a lot of speakers we won't have much time left to hear from the officers, ask questions, debate the options etc).

Then we'll hear from the officers and ask them questions - usually this is only questions from cllrs, but if my colleagues on the committee agree (which I think they will) I will allow some questions from the public too.

Fiona

Cllr Fiona Colley

Chair of Overview & Scrutiny

Labour Member for Nunhead Ward

[TP]

I think the "late applications" figure could do with some scrutiny, as I know of at least 2 people (I'm one of them) who has been sent a questionnaire asking why we applied late for a school place when our applications were in on time. I had a receipt sent out to me!

However, I did not get a place at any of the schools I chose (with hindsight I was a bit optimistic with my choices) but placed at one over 2 miles away in North Peckham. As the crow flies it was the 23rd furthest school from us, so I requested to be put on the waiting list for all schools close to me and got offered a place at a local school from the waiting list which is working out really well - but my application definitely was not late!

Bizarrely, this questionnaire was addressed to my son, not to me. An incredibly odd letter to send to a four year old and just lazy really as all other correspondence was addressed to me. However it does reflect the level of service and accuracy I've come to expect from Southwark Admissions.

Toast: how do you know you won't get into your 6 closest schools? I thought they were changing the distance criteria this year to as the crow flies?

[clux]

Can someone please explain to me how the late application thing works?

I applied on time to 4 schools, didn't get any of them so went on the waiting list. If a late application then comes in to one of the schools do they take priority over me if they live nearer?

Also, if you ask to go on to a waiting list of a school which wasn't one of your original 4 choices do you go below the people who applied on time?

Thank you

[TP]

clux - have PM'd you so I don't hi jack the thread.. T

[toast]

TP Wrote:

> Toast: how do you know you won't get into your 6

> closest schools? I thought they were changing the

> distance criteria this year to as the crow flies?

Mum gossip!

[James Barber]

Hi bawdy-nan,

Hopefully I can now explain a little more Southwark's duty related to nursery places/chilcare provision and how it undertakes it.

Southwark is required to undertake a sufficiency survey every three years to ensure enough childcare places for those wanting them are in place. Southwark undertakes a questionaire survey on a representative sample of residents. Contacting every family would be hugely expensive and duplicating the job of the ten yearly full national census. The survey covers more than simply childcare for under 5s. It also asks questions about aspirations as well as solid intentions of parents for childcare and is a planning tool. Its purpose is not to provide information for school place planning but for managing the childcare market so it is a measure of likely demand for pre school childcare.

This is clearly a very different activity from school place predictions. Connected but with potentially huge variables depending on rate of families leaving the area, families entering the area, use of private education, home learning rates, etc.

Does this answer your question?

[Fuschia]

I'm waiting to hear the info about how many places at each schol went to siblings, how many on other criteria, and how many parents who applied on time didn't get offered any of their chosen schools/any local school. I don't believe the problem is just one of late excessive applications.

[intexasatthe moment]

Fuschia - is that info you've asked for and therefore coming to you ?

Or will it be available on line from Southwark ?

Might it be available at the O&Sc meeting on the 12th ?

Aplogies if I'm being dense !

[Fuschia]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

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> Fuschia - is that info you've asked for and

> therefore coming to you ?

> Or will it be available on line from Southwark ?

> Might it be available at the O&Sc meeting on the

> 12th ?

> Aplogies if I'm being dense !

I have asked for it in a second FOI request, though, like the first, it hasn't been acknowledged and I suspect it won't be until i involve my ward councillor.

It's sure it's information the Council has at its fingertips, and key to the decision to add in "bulge" classes this year.

[intexasatthe moment]

Thanks Fuschia - what a power house of info and work you are!

[Fuschia]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

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> Thanks Fuschia - what a power house of info and

> work you are!

Just interested.. it's my field of work, broadly speaking.

[bawdy-nan]

Hi James - no, not really