Primary school places 2010

[trinity]

What about the site of Dulwich hospital - has that been considered as a possible site for a new primary school?

The Elms at the corner of Peckham Rye park doesn't look big enough but could it used and a smaller part of the park could then be annexed?

There is the currently under used section at the back of the cemetary.

Brenchly Gardens (may be in Lewisham rather than Southwark)

North - Western section of Horinman gardens (again probably Lewisham)

There is the large green area off Dunstans road which is presumably the gardens of the large block of flats - is there a portion that the owners would be happy to sell off?

Just some ideas - apologies if they have already been thought of and discounted.

[Mellors]

Dulwich Park?

mwhahahaha. (I prefer Peckham Rye) :)

[everyman]

It is revealing how little we are hearing from our local councillors I think. I have no idea what campaigning is going on our behalf. An election coming up and there will be loads of leaflets and delivering - but where is the action? I have heard nothing from the Peckham Rye councillors - and only Fiona Colley has looked like DOING something. But even then she talks about committees and scrutiny etc. We need to putting pressure on the highly paid council executives who had brought us to this position

[Jessie]

I gather from an email from Tessa Jowell that Southwark may find it hard to receive funds from central government as there is still a surplus of places in the north of the borough even though there is quite obviously a lack of places in the south ie East Dulwich. She is supporting calls for funding for extra places, though, apparently.

[CT Wac]

In their small moves labour have been way more impressive than Lib dems! Who have dome nothing but give poor excuses based on nothing but speculation about the causes of the problems! My rabbit could come up with a better action plan!

Also i heard that they have really bottled it regarding the elections and moved the election date to just after people find out about their places. Not a sign that they are really on top of things hay!

[FionaC]

Hi All

Update on the scrutiny. Slight correction to my previous message - it will be my committee Overview & Scrutiny Committee (OSC), which is the top level scrutiny committee, which will be conducting the scrutiny on East Dulwich Primary Places. Children's Scrutiny Committee will be focusing on early years/nursery places.

It looks like the meeting will be on 12 October (7pm start) and I have asked for it to be held in East Dulwich ? the officers in the scrutiny team are working on securing a suitable venue and I will post again when it's finalised. I'm meeting with Terry Parkin, the council's Head of Education, next week to discuss what information we need him to provide ahead of the meeting.

At the meeting itself I hope that some parents will come and tell the Members about their experiences this year and concerns for next, then we will move on to questioning the council officers about what went wrong, why the council didn't forsee the problem, what they did this year and what the options are for short, medium and long term. Either at that meeting, or if necessary after a second meeting, we should be able to put forward some recommendations to go to the Executive at their meeting in late November. We've set this timetable to dovetail in with the work that Laurie was talking about which the Leader of the Council tells me will also come to the Executive in November.

Fiona

PS CT Wac - I love a good conspiracy theory, but the local elections are always on the 1st Thursday of May and that's definitely not changed. What I am going to check out is whether the council has altered the date on which the allocations are announced. Anyone know what date they came out this year?

[everyman]

Thanks Fiona - glad to see the political processes kicking. Will definitely be there. I know it's a council committee - but hopefully politics will be kept to a minimum in the attempt to get the best for our children.

[bonvaleur]

Last year they came out the last week in April. This year it's the Monday after the elections, second week of May.

[edmama]

could someone let me know if goodrich or heber currently have bulge classes? are they having more next year? just need to clarify a point am putting to the admissions appeal.If you have any advice on what points to raise that could help the appeal please advise

[Gubodge]

Goodrich has a bulge class this year, but this should be a one off. Heber did not take any additional reception pupils this year; next year, who knows.

[Jessie]

Interesting feature in today's Indie about what's happened in Camden:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/schools/last-resort-when-schools-are-forced-into-makeshift-classrooms-1792046.html

[everyman]

We have just had two political leaflets through the door - one from the Lib Dems and one from Labour.

Lib Dems' leaflet was very self-righteous with some rather convenient pre election pledges:

1) Class sizes won;t get bigger.

2) New resources will follow any new school places

3) They will work with local schools to ensure there are always enough places for local kids.

My question is this - why haven;t they been doing the above for the last eight years? Fat lot of good number 3 is for those of us who have kids going to primary school in the next couple of years, when there won't be enough places. And haven;t they been in power for the last 8 years? At the moment there aren;t enough places and it has happened on their watch.

Labour - didn't even manage to mention the primary sschool issue at all. NOT AT ALL. So presumably this isn't important for them.

There has been absolutely no sign of any campaigning for us parents by the local politicans - with the exception of Fiona Colley who has organised the upcoming council meeting.

I don;t want this to be a party political issue. I just wonder what the local politicians think are issues if primary education isn't worth fighting for....

[Laurie Eggleston]

Hi all,

Firstly, Toast - I know you were suggesting the Homestall football fields as a possible site for a new primary school and I?ve looked into the feasibility this, along with the cemetery playing field near Brenchley Gardens. Both are what's known Metropolitan Open Land (MOL), and so are as good as impossible to build on. If the Council even suggested them as a site, and put in plans, they'd fail. Any attempt to build on MOL would be subject to a judicial review ? which would fail, or at least spend years going through the courts. And even IF the Council could get a plan approved for a new school on MOL - no Govt would ever provide the money to build a new school there. The only time anyone can build on MOL is to enhance the open space.

I know it may not seem like that it's the best use of the sites in Peckham Rye, considering the huge park next door, but open spaces in London are just too precious to people - once they're gone there's no getting them back. So I think we?re better off focusing our efforts on an alternative site for a new school which would have a chance of success. It would therefore seem that the Govt will have to provide the cash to purchase land for a school, as the council simply doesn?t own anywhere suitable in that area. Fiona - I hope the scrutiny committee will address this issue and investigate the options there are locally?

As James notes on his thread in the main room, Govt rules mean that the council would also have to open it up to various groups (like Faith groups) to see if they want to step in and run the school, slowing the process further. The Scrutiny Committee should therefore investigate if these rules can be by-passed in this instance, due to the pressing need. But whatever the issues around a new school are, it will still take years to build and won't solve the issue now. Parents need a more practical and achievable solution which will sort this in the years ahead. What can be done is for the council to work with local schools and continue to expand them to meet demand; either through bulge classes, or permanently.

So the Scrutiny Committee firstly needs to ensure that council officers evaluate what the extra demand in years to come will be (and also find out what the GLA are playing at with their incorrect figures which caused the issue). They then need to investigate which schools can expand to meet this demand. The council has already pledged that any extra places are met with extra funding, which will ensure standards continue to improve.

I?d also like the Scrutiny Committee to ask council officers whether the proof of residency is as strict as it can be. With such competition for places, I?d hate to think some parents managed to cheat on their forms to get a place in a school at an honest person?s expense. I?m not saying this is necessarily happening, but parents need to have full confidence in the system we have in place and if it can be tightened up, it should be.

Everyman - know it's not what you want to hear, but as has been noted elsewhere, this is happening all over the UK and especially all over London. According to the information provided to the council by the GLA - there shouldn't have been a need for a new school. So how could the Council previously have justified spending money on something which wasn't thought to be needed? I'm not trying to make excuses - I'm trying to represent local people here, not the council - but what could they have done differently?

But alas, hopefully we can identify what the need will be, and expand to deal with it. Remember the vast majority of parents did get their first choice (the likelihood of which increases when getting the forms in on time) this year when everyone was caught by surprise. Hopefully with forward planning, we can ensure that everyone is happy next year.

Phew, long post... I'm going to bed now!

Cheers.

[everyman]

Laurie - you say in your post: "According to the information provided to the council by the GLA - there shouldn't have been a need for a new school. So how could the Council previously have justified spending money on something which wasn't thought to be needed? I'm not trying to make excuses - I'm trying to represent local people here, not the council - but what could they have done differently?"

You are either being naive or you are asking us to be naive - but are you really saying the system of forecasted numbers for children is only done on a year by year basis and then not reviewed thoroughly? Are you really saying that forecasts are not then tested against reality each year and any anomaly investigated to identify trends which might not have been realised and can be analysed to prevent problems in the future? Are you really sayng that the the Council does no triangulation of GLA forecasts against other data? If so this is truly scary.

Either the date was giving the council this information ages ago and you lot (assuming you are a councillor) did nothing about it, or they didn;t have the information and your forecasting systems are flawed.

If there really was a surprise that noone could have seen coming then how about you publish the data that you were provided with over the last five years and show the actual figures for those years and demonstrate what a surprise it was

[Fuschia]

This report has info about the increase in children born:

http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/London%20Councils/6.Primaryschoolsfunding.doc.

and methodologies:

http://www.teachers.gov.uk/_doc/9159/Appendix%20L%20-%20Pupil%20Number%20Forecasting%20in%20London%20-%20Case%20for%20Pan-London%20Forecasting%20System.pdf

From Hansard:

Primary Education: Admissions

Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many children in each local authority have not been allocated a place at a primary school for September 2009; and if he will make a statement. [261603]

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Department does not collect data on offers of primary school places or on the number of unplaced children. Local authorities are under a duty to make sure that every child of compulsory school age has a suitable school place.

Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what account (a) his Department and (b) local education authorities in Greater London took of the effect of (i) the birth rate and (ii) Greater London Authority forecasts of the number of children entering primary education in (A) 2000 and (B) 2005 when determining policy on the provision; by what plans he has to take account of the demand for primary school places following changes in the birth rate in (1) 2009, (2) 2012 and (3) 2015; and if he will make a statement. [262552]

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: In reply to part (a) of your question, when determining policy on the provision of school places, the Department took no direct account of the birth rate or of GLA forecasts of the number of children entering primary education in 2000, 2005 or 2009. Local authorities are responsible for planning provision for their areas. The Department allocates basic need capital to enable authorities to fund new places in response to pupil number growth. To ensure that local authorities can plan strategically, funding is fixed for three years at the beginning of each spending review period (the current period runs from April 2008 to March 2011). In determining basic need allocations, the Department uses local authorities? own pupil number forecasts, expecting authorities themselves to take account of local factors that will influence future pupil numbers such as birth rate, new housing and population migration. The Department relies on the accuracy of local authority forecasts as it does not hold back funds to allow for future changes.

11 Mar 2009 : Column 560W

In reply to part (b) of your question, the Department does not collect information on the extent to which local education authorities in Greater London take account of the birth rate and GLA forecasts of the number of children entering primary education.

All basic need resources for 2008-09 to 2010-11 have been allocated. However, the Department is reviewing emerging pupil number trends to inform the spending review period 2011-12 onwards and will consider whether to continue allocating all basic need funding at the beginning of a new CSR period.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmhansrd/cm090311/text/90311w0034.htm

Note from that last extract, and GLA reports I posted to the forum previosuly... the govt has retained no funds to pass to LAs who need additional capital funding prior to 2011 (and those funds will be subject to cuts in govt spending, I'm sure!)

[Fuschia]

Southwark planning: http://www.teachers.gov.uk/_doc/8941/Southwark%20template.pdf

This is a bit old. I asked for a copy of the school Organisation Plan 2009 onwards, but apparently it's not agreed yet (can this be true?!)

[Fuschia]

teachernet guidance for LAs:

http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/management/schoolfunding/Resources/pupilprojectionguide/localauthoritylevel/

[Laurie Eggleston]

Everyman - the council aren't 'my lot'. I'm hoping the residents of Peckham Rye choose me to be one of 'their lot' to fight for their corner! So no, I'm not a Councillor.

I therefore have no data to give you - but I agree with you on this. Let's ask the council officers to explain their system of forecasting numbers at the meeting on the 12th and see if it can be improved (which it obviously can!). And let's ask them to publish the GLA data.

Thanks.

[toast]

Oh dear....

I didn't suggest Homestall, Lisa Rajan told me in person that it was there or the Rye and i commented that as the Rye was out of the question there were no other options.

Also from what i gather ED has responded quite nicely. Many parents are throwing themselves behind the schools they did not choose but got, joining pta's, organising cake backs etc. With this type of support and a bit of organisation creating space where sensible ED schools may really thrive, but people will probably only throw themselves behind their 'local' school and not one miles away.

[everyman]

Thanks Fuschia - this is very interesting. The Department clearly states therefore that authorities themselves need to take account of local factors that will influence future pupil numbers such as birth rate, new housing and population migration. It also is also clear that the Department puts the responsibility on the accuracy of results on the local autorities.

So basically for the Council to blaming anyone else for this (I quote the Lib Dem leaflet here: "Boris Johnson's Office got their school places projections wrong earlier this year.")

But it isn;t the GLA who is is responsible for providing school places it is Southwark, and if the council did not do enough work to confirm the reliability of the data they are the ones at fault

[everyman]

Where is Caroline Pigeon on this?

Correct me if I am wrong but is she not a GLA member.

Also was she not Lib Dem councillor i/c education before she was elected to the GLA last year

Seem to this humble voter that she should be making some sort of statement..........

Do you have some sort of influence over this?

[Pugwash]

With house prices so high, I am aware of a number of young families who have moved into private rented property in East Dulwich over the past 18 months. I believe that many of these families who would normally have moved onto other area when child reached reception class age, have decided to stay in ED. These families statistics would not have featured on any LA data base as the children were unlikely to have been born in Southwark. As a Health and Social Care Worker, I know from colleagues in Kings, especially the Registrars etc - that many now rent in ED and have young children. With 2 large hospitals (KCH and Maudsley)- it is inevitable that a small percentage of staff living in rented accommodation will have primary aged children. As these 2 hospitals have a high reputation, they attract visiting specialists from abroad who come with their families for 2 - 3 years to gain additional experience before returning home. When I worked at the Maudsley I was introduced to many psychaitrists from Eastern Europe, South America etc who were over here with their families and living in ED and whose children were in local schools. Their income did not allow them to pay for private schooling, so were entitled to attend state schools.

What I am basically trying to say that statistics can only predict - statistics predicted that lots of people would buy properties in ED, and various blocks of flats were erected which now lay empty as nobody predicted the credit crunch.

[James Barber]

Hi Toast,

The East Dulwich Harris Boys Academy permanent site is being built on what was formerly the Waverley lower (secondary)school.

[James Barber]

Apologies for such a long post.

Southwark Council is one of 25/33 London Boroughs to purchase pupil number forecasts from the GLA stats dept. They have many many years of developing models to accurately predict these numbers. This year they got it terribly wrong. The annual January report was revised in April, May and June as more and more late applications appeared.

I was really taken by surprise and shocked. I've been a councillor for 3 years and previously only had 1 secondary school appeal a year to help with.

It?s believed that changes in London?s demographics, combined with the impact of the recession, have led to an extraordinary rise in demand for new reception places. Southwark's rapidly improving results are also believed to be having a strong impact. Appears fewer people are moving to the suburbs and more children are living in flats.

For the Dulwich area and Southwark overall 304 and 2,370 applications respectively from Southwark residents on time with further 45 and 556 late applications. For the Dulwich and Southwark 90% had schools offered and accepted within 1mile of home for on time applications. For late applications the percentages fell to 80%. The absurd statutory requirement is to provide school places within 2 miles. Hence the concern govt is unlikely to fund extra school places when 2 miles isn't being breached.

Of those who didn?t get a school within 1 mile of home many were from choice - attending religious schools or the same school as siblings. It's believed many of the late applications came from residents who were unsuccessful this year obtaining places in neighbouring boroughs.

Lots of efforts behind the scenes to work out is this a blip? how long if a blip? why such a huge jump in late applications? how to prepare for next year? how long would a new school take to build? is it necessary? where would you build one if necessary? government rules would probably result in a religious school and would an Islamic, CoE or Catholic school with seperate admissions policies solve things? These questions if acted upon in series would normally take 7 years before a new school opens due to government rules, funding and procedures. Hence the emphasis on moving from existing 1.5 form entries to 2 form entry schools and finding other existing schools to expand. Equally 2 or 3 entry forms appear optimum for results.

One thing is really clear. Goodrich deserve a lot of praise for its help this year with a one off bulge class that will track through. Just the right side to avoid negative results. Thank You Goodrich.

A full report by council officers to the executive councillor committee in November will be ready by the end of October. I have been and continue to have frequent and regular meetings, discussions with the cllr Nick Stanton the council leader and lead on education. We will have solutions for next years admissions.

Regards james barber

Liberal Democrat councillor for East Dulwich

[email protected]

[savage]

James

With all the information you now have, are you in a position to say if east dulwich will have the same problem for 2010 reception intake and to what extent?