Primary school places 2010

[MrsR]

2fe means two form entry - two classes of thirty (so a yearly intake of sixty children) 3fe therefore means 90 places for reception children per year.

[Fuschia]

Moos Wrote:

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> What's an fe?

sorry.

form of entry ( no of classes in each age group)

[Fuschia]

cloudnine Wrote:

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> Fuschia Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > The issues really are around things like size

> of

> > playgrounds, lunch hall, PE space, trying to

> > accomdate expansion.

> >

> >

>

> You've emphasised my concern. What we're looking

> at here is squeezing more and more into existing,

> old Victorian schools that occupy what are

> effectively finite, inner city spaces. Surely all

> this 'cramming in' is detrimental to the children?

hence why the council initially offered schools 2 miles away...

[cloudnine]

>

> hence why the council initially offered schools 2

> miles away...

Yes, I am aware of this. My point is a lot of parents are lobbying for extra classes to be added (while we wait for schools to be built) - possibly without realising what effect it has on the already stretched infrastructure of our schools. While I understand there are no overnight solutions apart from 'bulge classes' - I think it relevant to raise a concern that we need to be careful to monitor the management of our schools as they expand in this way, so that standards are maintained.

[Moos]

Thanks Fuschia and MrsR. I agree with Fuschia that it's up to the schools to manage standards.

[Fuschia]

I think few schools could take in an additional form of entry all through without accommodation becoming a severe difficulty... if you expand by a form of entry, then in y1 you have an extra 30 kids, in year 2 an extra 60, in year 3 and extra 90... so it's only a solution for a year or two. Can the council build an extra primary? Will they get funding? If there are excess places at schools within a few miles, probably not.

I'd be very interested to hear what discussions are going on at the Council about this. My FOI request deadline is tomorrow, I don't think I will get a response within the statutory 20 days and will therefore make a complaint to the Information Commisssioner.

I notice the Libdem councillors have woken up to pending elections, as they are posting elsewhere on the forum.

I'd be interested to hear their views on all this!

[EDmummy]

Hate being political but it is a fine thing that the Lib Dem councillors are waking up when the horse has truly bolted! I understand your concern Cloudnine - which is why, since my child got in to our first choice school I have previously been reluctant to post here - I am concerned about bulge classes and their affect on my child's education.

[Ann]

Goodrich was always a large primary school, I know of no other primary schools with a three form ( 90 ) intake. If that has been increased, albeit temporarily, to a four form intake, then this years intake will be 120. This is the intake for many Comprehensives, but for 4 year olds.

I think Coudnine's post was very relevant and I would have concerns about this.

[toast]

cloudnine Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You've emphasised my concern. What we're looking

> at here is squeezing more and more into existing,

> old Victorian schools that occupy what are

> effectively finite, inner city spaces. Surely all

> this 'cramming in' is detrimental to the children?

Claudine and EDmummy

While i toally understand your concern it is importent to keep the buldge classes in perspective. Plans i have heard so far involve turning very small schools e.g 1.5 form into 2 form schools, which, as noted can improve the school. The one off buldge classes would only be places in successful schools, would be for one year only and would be well funded.

This would only add 30 students to the population (e.g. Goodrich would go from 613 to 643), and would not grow from there.

I really do understand your concern but these one off buldge classes are exactly that, I doubt your childrens education would suffer and would dramatically improve the lives of many in your community. Please do try to have some empathy for parents facing having their children sent up to north southwark, 4 extra journeys througth london traffic every day, not living near their classmates. I for one would have to dramatically alter my life/ work to accomodate the extra journeys, let alone the extra stress and financial implications.

We would be best off responding together as a comunity and campaigning for a new school, the sooner this is build the fewer buldge classes there will be.

[Fuschia]

Ann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Goodrich was always a large primary school, I know

> of no other primary schools with a three form ( 90

> ) intake. If that has been increased, albeit

> temporarily, to a four form intake, then this

> years intake will be 120. This is the intake for

> many Comprehensives, but for 4 year olds.

>

Yes, I think 4 fe is too big.

[Fuschia]

toast Wrote:

The one off buldge classes would only be

> places in successful schools, would be for one

> year only and would be well funded.

> This would only add 30 students to the population

> (e.g. Goodrich would go from 613 to 643), and

> would not grow from there.

But what will happen next year? Is there some reason to believe the demographics will have changed? I would be surprised.

Taking in additional pupils in any school will also increase the number of siblings hence it will be even harder to get children in under non-sibling criteria next year.

I don't have a problem with increasing intake at a school (though I think Goodrich taking in 4 reception classes is too many) but I would be very interested to hear exactly what the Council thinks will happen in 2010!

[toast]

Tell me about it!

Amazed that such a big school has such a small catchment, about 0.3 miles, How does that happen, it's our nearest school but not near enough! The sibling thing means my boy is really unlikely to get in now but i am honestly happy for those families who got lucky this year. Rightfully i dont see Goodrich bulging again but it did seem the right thing to do given the very real crisis and respect the council for making a tough decision.

Some of the less popular schools have really come up recently so hoping we will get into one of those, not hoping for a top school, just a happy local one. Thing is that might not happen, even a local school in special measures is oversubscribed, something has gone very very wrong!.

[cloudnine]

toast Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> The one off buldge classes would only be

> places in successful schools, would be for one

> year only and would be well funded.

> This would only add 30 students to a population of

> arround 360, and would not grow from there.

>

It has been widely reported here on the forum - and elsewhere - that the Lyndhurst, for example, is actually making it a permanent, ongoing fixture. And LibDem Laurie Eggleston has stated further up this thread that it is not going to be a one-off, and it will be repeated.

Of course the council will have to continue the 'bulge' class scheme. Where else are the children in 2011, 2012, 2013 - and siblings of those who started in 2010 - going to be placed?

Just how can Southwark accommodate what is effectively a population explosion in one area of the borough, and where we all expect a place at the school down the road? In the interim bulge classes are their only response. We all have to be realistic - campaign for a new school of course yes. I'm right behind you all the way. But anyone who has experience in planning, consultation etc etc can tell you that's going to be at least 2-3 years in the future, minimum.

Toast - being sent to a school miles away could be a possibility for me - and anyone else applying for 2010, and yes, I too will have deep concerns about it. But my issue raised on this thread is about the alternative - which in my mind is equally as worrying. If my child is placed in an overly subscribed school with one of these emergency 'bulge classes' (temporary or permanent) I would naturally have concerns whether his / her education and enjoyment of school is being compromised when crammed into an increasingly resource and space stretched inner city school.

To repeat my earlier post - I think we need to all ensure that the schools in question can actually cope with the emergency expansion. And that standards are not affected.

I think it's a valid and fair issue to raise.

[toast]

I totally agree with everything cloudnine said.

I'm just very uncomfortable with doing nothing, and very pleased its being discussed on this and other forums. We are all after the same thing and that is creative problem solving by those in positions to fix the problem. I too am keen to see what the council come up with. It might be starting feeder classes before a school is built, it might be bulge classes, it might be school expansions, it might be a regular bus to the schools in north southwark with more places. Who knows. I just want them to be working to come up with something rather than burying their heads in the sand.

Even if your child is in a local school it clearly effects you so we should work together to get the crisis the attention it deserves.

[Gubodge]

As someone whose daughter is starting in Goodrich reception on Monday, I am not too concerned about the extra class being taken on. After all, from a four year old's perspective there's not much difference between 90 and 120, and each of those 30 additional pupils will bring funding. I would not be happy to think that this was going to be repeated in subsequent years, though. As far as I see it, Goodrich and the other two schools have done their bit and it is now for other schools to take the extra burden next year and beyond. But it may be that this will not be such an issue for a couple of years at least. I personally know of at least two families who are considering moving out of London or going private because of the situation this year. If that is replicated across the borough then Southwark's forcasts for pupils moving to the suburbs could be accurate after all.

[Laurie Eggleston]

Hi,

So I?ve been chasing the council for answers on this issue, and here?s what I?ve managed to find out.

Regarding bulge classes ? these will be repeated next year. They won?t be at Goodrich or Heber again, until the current bulge has worked its way through. The council doesn?t know which local schools will have a bulge next year ? they will be negotiating with the schools over the coming months. It may be that some schools will welcome an extra form of entry; and the increase in funding and parental support that will bring. Alternatively, schools might not want to expand. The council can force schools to take extra classes, but this obviously isn?t ideal.

Any bulge classes are fully funded. But with regards to the question about whether standards will slip ? this is something the schools and PTAs will have to work to ensure, and it?s why finding the schools which want to expand is important. The council obviously can?t interfere too heavily with the micro-management of schools as headteachers and parents rightly know what's best for their school. However, saying that I?m sure local councillors will help work to ensure standards are maintained (I would anyway!). Local schools in Southwark have been improving in recent years, and I see no reason why this won?t continue.

The GLA population statistics still say we won?t need a new school for several years (?!), but the admissions department are aware and expecting that additional places will again be needed. An exact number can?t be determined though as by next year the recession may not be such a large factor and so more parents may choose private schools, as in previous years, or move out to the suburbs.

On the search for a new school ? the council?s planning department are currently studying all of the available options in the area, ready to present a feasibility report for the council. The council exec has requested quite strongly that this is ready next week, but ultimately it?s up to the planning officers to come up with the goods. Once they have, I will try and ensure that the information is shared and that local people are consulted at the beginning of the process and involved in the planning of a new school. The Government requires that councils see if any groups want to step in and run the school (faith groups, for example). This process can take years, so to speed up getting a new school, we should lobby the Govt so that this stage is side-stepped (on the grounds of the urgent need).

Does anyone have children who were at Heber in the years it turned itself around? Can they post advice and suggestions about what can be done to help schools like Goose Green get out of special measures, and also raise the profile of other local less-popular schools? (Perhaps set a new thread on here for this...?)

On admissions, there are the simple things that can be done to ensure the admission department can?t give excuses. Using recorded delivery when returning the forms, or applying online, for example, so there?s no question about when they received your application. Applying early too, and making sure you use all available choices. After this year, I?m sure that councillors will be working with the admissions team next year to ensure things are handled well.

To those suggesting I am only interested in this as an election?s coming up ? would you prefer it if we didn?t campaign on this issue? The election's a long way off still - I?m campaigning on this as it?s currently the most important issue in our area, the same as I?d campaign on it in any other year. If you?d rather I didn?t spend my spare time trying to do something about this please let me know!

I?ll post again when there?s news about the options for a new school?s location. Let me know any other questions in the meantime, and I?ll try my best in getting an answer from the council.

[toast]

Thanks for the feedback.

Didnt realise Heber got bulged?

If, as is suggested we have used up the emergency measure (bulge classes) in the most needed areas, those coming through next year, considering the additional sibling burden, are totally screwed?

Edited to add

If anyone is in the process of applying or is interested for any reason please join the East Dulwich and Psckham Rye Primary School Places facebook page.

[www.facebook.com]

Its a facebook group for any parents concerned about the crisis in local school places.

[candj]

The 'bulge' method seems a very short-term and almost worrying solution as presumably not only does it bring in the sibling burden next year as Toast mentions, but this years 'bulge' students will only continue on to clog the secondary education level, as well.

We moved to ED in 2001 and as our local, Heber, had one of the worst reputations and the Ofsted report made for quite a read. I'd say in watching the school, it turned itself around in less than 4 years which is impressive.

Edited to add that those 4 years of turn around for Heber coincided with an influx of children being born and/or moving to our road (ourselves included).

[sew]

I was involved in putting pressure on the council this year to get my daughter a place - she starts at Goodrich tomorrow and although I am delighted that she eventually got a place I am concerned about the problems caused by the bulge class for her and the school community as a whole particularly as the school was unwilling. Regarding the comment about private school places and the recession, it has been reported in the national press that this is a bit of a red herring as Private schools have not seen a drop in applications this year and this is not a valid argument against planning in advance for extra places for the next few years. It was detrimental to my daughter not knowing for sure which school she'd be going to until only a couple of weeks ago. I have been told by Southwark council that the parents who experienced problems this year will be used as a focus group to improve the chaotic admissions system for next year but I have yet to be contacted for my feedback. I intend to chase this up though and will keep in touch.

[hernehilly]

Can i just agree with sew's post, as far as I am aware the private schools in the area are full too, we are on a waiting list for two of them and have been for several months. In fact we were verbally offered by one private school in Dec last year then got a letter in Feb saying that actually they were subsequently very over subscribed and we were now a long way down the waiting list. This had been our backup option if we didn't get into our nearest state school, which we didn't. Southwark could only offer us something 3 miles away. If Southwark are depending on private schools to make a difference, they will be making an error. We are having to go to a Lambeth school a mile away - despite my child having SEN issues and the Lambeth budget for treatment being about half that of Southwark.

[BeccaL]

We also finally got a place at Goodrich having lost our appeal - if anyone does have any information about council focus groups please let me know - the Southwark process was so ridiculous and painful from start to finish they need to know about it! We're going to complain about the appeal process because it was such a farce but want our daughter settled in at Goodrich first.

[everyman]

Laurie,

Please can you expalin exactly what campaigning is being done for all of us worried parents? I see that you are looking into the issue - but what action is being taken? What is Southwark Council (be it politicians or officers) doing to actually avoid what is a scandalous lack of provision of primary places. For example is there a senior executive who can explain how the long term strategy failed so abjectly and what on earth Southwark is going to do about it.

If I hear one more time that it is due to the recession I will scream - for goodness sake the provate schools are full to busting...........

[FionaC]

Just posted this on the Facebook group and thought I would post here too

Hi All

As well as being a cllr for Nunhead, I'm also chair of the council's Overview & Scrutiny Committee. The scrutiny committees are made up of backbench cllrs of all parties and undertake investigations into issues (much like parliamentary select committees) then make recommendations to the Council's Executive (aka the cabinet).

A few years back the Childrens Scrutiny Committee did a scrutiny of secondary school provision in East Dulwich & Nunhead (following the EDEN campaign) and the result was the new Harris Boys Academy which is currently being built.

I think a scrutiny investigation would also be helpful on this issue. From following the various forums I can see that there are lot's of questions we need really clear answers to. For instance-

- is this a one off bulge in population (seems unlikely to me),

- is there scope for expanding any of the local schools,

- where could a new school be built (I hope Homestall Rd isn't the only option as it's home to a great junior football club) and how could it be paid for

- how long would it take to open a new primary (a few years at least I'd guess) and what happens in the meantime

With a scrutiny all these questions would be put to the council officers and executive member at a public meeting and local parents would be able to have their say too.

I've been discussing this with my colleagues, particularly the chair of Childrens Scrutiny (Cllr Barrie Hargrove) and I'm told that the Children's Scrutiny Committee will now be doing an investigation into Primary School Places in Southwark starting at their next meeting in early October.

Barrie was working on the ?project scope? yesterday so I should find out more soon and will post again.

Fiona

Cllr Fiona Colley

Labour Member for Nunhead

Chair of Overview & Scrutiny Committee

[Fuschia]

Fiona, that's very helpful. Whcih party are you from, if you don't mind me asking?

[Mellors]

She's Labour.