Do you feel you can express yourself or is there a gagging order on society?

[Huguenot]

Ah, so you intend to use it for ethnic cleansing? Great idea.

As I said, gagging doesn't require me to put a better case than the one you've made here.

*shaky head smiley*

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Huguenot Wrote:

Ah, so you intend to use it for ethnic cleansing? Great idea. As I said, gagging doesn't require me to put a

better case than the one you've made here. *shaky head smiley*

Not that at all H.

If all crime figures show "The Huguenots" are responsible for certain crimes that affect my Family, out of all proportion to the number of "Huguenots" in our midst, then, obviously, few will want to live in an area comprised, primarily, of "Huguenots".

Just common sense surely.

If one then establishes that Papua New Guineans or Chinese or Norwegians living in The UK commit, virtually, no crime then it makes perfect sense to have as many "Papua New Guineans" or "Chinese" OR "Norwegians" in our Neighbourhoods, I would have thought.

Anyone we will beg to differ as I'm off to the Norwegian/Papua New Guinean Quarter of Soho to look for a place.:)

[Jeremy]

TLS - as Hugo said, you've made a good case for NOT disclosing such statistics.

You have previously complained at the lack of integration between ethnic groups within the community. And now you are saying that you would like to see crime figures broken down by race, to help people choose which area to live in.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Jeremy Wrote:

TLS - as Hugo said, you've made a good case for NOT disclosing such statistics.

You have previously complained at the lack of integration between ethnic groups within the community. And now you are saying that you would like to see crime figures broken down by race, to help people choose which area to live in.

Fair point on the surface Jeremy.

Ideally we could all live together in some degree of mutual harmony, and, indeed, I'm glad to say in many parts of London, for example, that DOES and IS happening.

This thread is about "gagging orders" though and I believe that the truth "shall out" and in the interim, until whatever measures are used to solve the problem of reducing, still further, street crime, then everyone must do what they consider best for their own Families.

It would be great if figures could be genuinely produced to show no real trends and then there would be no reason to use those figures in any way. It DOES irk that the Authorities take decisions by use of "gagging orders" to suppress the truth though. That can't be right, i.m.o.

Surely the more publicised any situation is, the more those empowered to, can do something positive about helping the situation so that there is no "suspicion" any more.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Can't believe people are engaging with TLS on this one - how many times have we been down this road?

[mockney piers]

And tony subverts another thread to stick totally to his agenda. Nice.

He did it with sledgehammer subtlety...ooh look a shiny penny...by an albanokavanjan. He even chucked foregners and paedophiles into the mix in the same fashion bush always mentioned Iraq and Al Qsed side by side. Never asserting, just always juxtaposing.

Stop it, it's offtopicant anyhoo I'd have thought no matter how many times he uses the phrase gagging order.

This should be about whether society finds talk of race uncomfortable, nit whether race based dat should be suppressed.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

Can't believe people are engaging with TLS on this one - how many times have we been down this road

There is no further need on this thread to mention the "Race" aspect with regards to the decision by The Metropolitan Police to no longer disclose London Crime figures.

The poweres-that-be have decided that these figures harm "Community Relations" and I, and others, will have to accept that their decision is for the greater good.

End Of Sean.

[bignumber5]

Isn't it comfortable to find yourself on a road where you can actually start to make out your old footprints...?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

mockney piers Wrote:

This should be about whether society finds talk of race uncomfortable, nit whether race based dat should be suppressed.

Thats the whole point MP.

This thread IS about "suppression of the truth" by way of "gagging orders" it is NOT about whether society finds talk of race uncomfortable.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

bignumber5 Wrote:

Isn't it comfortable to find yourself on a road where you can actually start to make out your old footprints...?

bn5 that comment applies to everyone on this thread who has replied since my comment! lol

[mockney piers]

Inactually do think it can be difficult to have open debate regards, say immigration, the topic raised.

Race is an emotive and sensitive subject, people are quick to jump to infer meaning one way or another.

Cries of racism or political correctness gone mad arise with unerring regularity.

Is there a 'gagging order', I don't think so. But debate can very hard to keep focussed and I think,, particularly on here, met of us just avoid it. Some do however bring it up alot, relevant or no.

[Mark]

This thread is about suppression of your self expression by way of a generic gagging order on society, not "suppression of the truth" in the way mentioned by TLS. Changing the way crime data is collected and delivered is not a gagging order, ok it's a handy way of slipping casual, suburban racism into a discussion but it's not a gagging order.

Personally I think a "gagging order on society" is very much dependant on the individual's perception and/or the society in question. I don't hear a hushing sound when over population is mentioned in discussion, I think we're free to discuss anything but when it comes to stating beliefs that are unacceptable to the society in question there's a difference. I'm sure you can discuss homosexuality in a fundamentally Muslim society as long as you didn't mention you were gay, I guess that's could be called a society gagging order.

Fortunately, I believe, we live in a society where things are generally the right way around i.e your sexuality is accepted, things can be discussed openly, and nonchalantly suggesting that ethnicity is key factor to criminal behaviour is looked down upon.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Actually I deliberately did not mention that the figures would "harm Community Relations" initially as I knew that it would be obvious what that would imply.

There is no point, whatsoever, discussing "race" in relation to crime on here on any thread as the figures can not be extrapolated rendering any current conversation based on conjecture etc.

Any further conversation on this thread involving "race" i.r.o. crime will not feature me but it is an unpalatable truth that because of the previous crime figures and what they clearly showed that the current Crime figures are no longer produced so that information has been "gagged" effectively.

p.s. When I, earlier, said "End of Sean" I meant end of my contribution on this thread not the premature demise of our esteemed fellow Forumite.:))

[HAL9000]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In the wider debate 'rampant corruption' is a

> silly way to describe the UK. It's evidently not

> the best,

At the time - the mid-80's - the public's perception of honesty and integrity within the establishment were rather different. What I came to realise then was that the establishment was highly corruptible; it had various mechanisms and pathways built-in that enabled embarrassing or uncomfortable information to be easily suppressed across the board. Only the tip of the iceberg entered the public domain.

Needless to say, I have been actively monitoring the situation during the last quarter century. I still hold the view that only a small proportion of establishment corruption is exposed. Most of the self-preserving mechanisms are still in place or have been replaced by more sophisticated versions.

> but the coverage given to transgressions

> (for example police malpractice) must prove that

> it's pretty open here.

Things have changed recently. But the machine is still being run by an old school adept at enhancing its internal procedures to avoid further disclosures via the same route. It will soon be business as usual. We, as a nation, are far too trusting - or should that be gullible?

> Have you never been anywhere else in the world?

I have travelled widely as it happens. Just because blatant corruption is rife elsewhere doesn't mean it should be allowed to continue here. The tendency towards corruption is deeply embedded within human nature. We should remain vigilant.

[SteveT]

HAL9000 you are an erudite speaker, full marks for your succinct post.

I agree completely with what you say, but only the people who have somehow run headlong into the establishment, would truly understand your point of view.

You have written what I have long known, but could never express, and there is a great shortage of open balanced criticism in this society for the reasons you have mentioned. GOOD MAN. err or lady.

[HAL9000]

SteveT: You're quite right: one has to see it to believe it. I'm male, by the way - and a bit long in the tooth.

[We missed each other last night but the three young ladies you were kind enough to chaperone to their first EDF Drinks night were praising your charm and chivalry. Hope to meet you at the next one.]

[taper]

TLS

Bare statistics of the kind you mention might leave people with certain limitations to draw erroneous conclusions.

See here for a serious piece of research by the home office which gives you as much information as a brain can take:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/rdsolr3305.pdf

Not sure it gives you the results you thought you'd get. But I hope it helps.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

taper Wrote:

TLS

Bare statistics of the kind you mention might leave people with certain limitations to draw erroneous conclusions.

See here for a serious piece of research by the home office which gives you as much information as a brain can take:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/rdsolr3305.pdf

Not sure it gives you the results you thought you'd get. But I hope it helps.

Not in the slightest interested taper as your credilbility in supplying "official" Stats and figures is Zero, I'm afraid.

I would only listen and take notice of someone who keeps an open mind and takes a neutral stance.

We all know that "figures/stats" will only be supplied if they appear to support a certain viwpoint and they will conspicuous by their absence or there will be a deafening silence if the "official" figures show otherwise so there is no point bothering.

Maybe the former head of The Metropolitan Poice-Sir Paul Condon was totally wrong when he said a particular Ethnic Group were responsible for street crime out of all proportion to their numbers.

You would have thought that as he was the Head of The Met. at the time he would be in the perfect position to know the true facts....and they gave him a Knighthood....

taper: As this thread is about "gagging orders" please show me the figures for The London Area for the last 5/6 years to proove they have been available to the general Public.

I trust you won't find "certain limitations" in your quest and try to avoid the sly, personal digs and stick to the facts for those years for London or aren't they available?

[Mark]

Is there any proof that there's a gagging order on the figures (ethnicity and crime) TLS mentions? Or was it just a change in the way the data was collected, evaluated and produced?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Good question Mark.

Its the only relevance to "gagging" that should appertain to this thread.

I, for one, have no desire to get involved in any kind of "Race" dialogue as it is pointless without all relevant criteria and I have to respect the sensibilities of all the contributors to EDF who have no desire to acknowledge or show any real interest in this Subject as their level of discomfiture is overpowering.

To paraphase taper :

"I'm not sure, further in-depth exploration will give you the results you thought you'd like to get " so best left alone and not discussed one feels.

[Mark]

Excellent, so that's an end to the speculative race/ethnicity talk.

HAL9000, you said "I have been actively monitoring the situation during the last quarter century", is there anything you can share with us? And what would suggest we do, if we can, to help alleviate the establishment corruption?

[Huguenot]

Tony your only professed reason for knowing the figures was so that you could move to a safe area. The crime figures by area are available through the met police. These meet your objectives and are not 'gagged'.

You seem to be expressing a desire to punish all people of certain skin colours for the actions of some of them. For that I think you should be both gagged and imprisoned.

Because there is no possible constructive purpose to ascribing the actions of a few people to the entirety of their race I understand the figures are not collected rather than 'gagged'.

[Huguenot]

Sorry, cross posted Mark, I won't bring it up again! ;-)

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Huguenot Wrote:

You seem to be expressing a desire to punish all people of certain skin colours for the actions of some of them. For that I think you should be both gagged and imprisoned.

Sometimes I have to admire your superb "technique" H.

You seem to be expressing a desire to make ludicrous assumptions that I want to "punish all people etc " and then want to imprison and gag me for something I don't want to do!

Excellent.

I DO want to move to an area which gives me and my loved ones the best possible chance of avoiding being a victim of crime and that I have succeeded in doing over the last 26 years since moving from Walworth in 1983.

There were 6 murders alone in Walworth in a few months last summer ( 3 in one week) and that included Stephen Bigby, who was one of The "Acid" Gang who raped a Girl who had severe educational difficulties, and then poured Acid all over her body to remove any "DNA".

If that type of crime DOES happen in my area I'll let you know M8.

Sorry for veering "off-topic" by replying so its over to "gagging orders"...

[Administrator]

Please stay on topic