would you stand up to people?

[nashoi]

Although Moos is probably right I've reacted in the opposite manner in the past. Not long ago I did chase a mugger down a dark road (shouting something rather shorter and more blunt than come back here you naughty man!) but would ignore anti social behaviour.

In the former incident I was out jogging one night and ran into someone being attacked. I didn't feel I had any choice but to intervene, what else were my options, stand and watch or carry on jogging and pretend I hadn't seen anything? I'm glad to say neither occurred to me.

However with lesser anti-social behaviour I would have a choice and being a normally non-confrontational wuss I would choose to walk away.

[Marmora Man]

I think Moos point is well made - like the "broken window" theory put in place by Mayor Guiliani in New York. Look after the small time crime and vandalism to prevent the area / society from degenerating further. Having solved (?) the smaller problems areas / society starts to move in a more positive direction.

[Santerme]

You have to love the changes made in New York

[nashoi]

Marmora Man - Isn't that confusing the actions of the state with the actions of an individual citizen? The people doing the confronting in New York were armed police officers, of which it should be pointed out there are substantially more in New York than London per head of pop (armed or unarmed).

At risk now of going off topic but I remember reading at the time that Guiliani's policies were often misrepresented. The reality was that at the same time as the police moving into a neighbourhood and instigating zero tolerance, all the state agencies that affected that neighbourhood, housing, social services, parks and environment the lot, also moved in. Much more akin to massive state intervention than republican Guiliani would ever like to admit. The mayor or local authorities over here just don't have the same level of power

[Marmora Man]

Nashoi, I was using the GUiliani ideas as an example - I think the principle of "look after the small irritating things and larger irritating things become fewer" still stands.

[SteveT]

When a guy in new york stood up for himself and shot the 4 man gang on a train who were threatening him with a sharpened screwdriver, the muggings dropped by 14% the following year.

Hooray and many happy returns, say I.

[paragon]

Generally people are cowards. Mrs Paragon comes home often talking of people who have been rude, barged her out the way, cut-her up, pushed her out of the way on the tube etc etc. This kind of things never happens to me, by she is 5"1

Hard to give a definitive answer as there is so many more factors involved.

[eccentric]

SteveT Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> When a guy in new york stood up for himself and

> shot the 4 man gang on a train who were

> threatening him with a sharpened screwdriver, the

> muggings dropped by 14% the following year.

>

>

>

> Hooray and many happy returns, say I.

exactamondo - where's Charlie Bronson when we need him!

[SteveT]

Usually you don't have to stand up to people they take a glance at you and determine whether they can take you, or they leave you well alone.

If you stand up in that kind of situation you get at best a beating, or possibly killed.

I was some years ago close to being attacked by someone who had a record of violence, when he came at me I was carrying a paring knife (I worked in a kitchen) which he had not noticed, and then I calmly said 'I've got a knife' and held it out. He backed off and I went on my way but had he come within reach I would have used whatever was at my disposal.

I was not going to take a beating if there was any other way out, if it meant gutting him like a rabbit I was certainly up for it.

Recently I challenged a guy who walked past me and the rest of the queue and went straight to the self check out tills, I said to him 'hay man' and he ignored me, I stayed where I was at the head of the queue and said 'HAY MAN' rather more loudly so that the supermarket went quiet and everything stopped........he then took a sly look to the left to see if it should be taken seriously, saw me, and went scarlet and then I said 'there's a queue' not as loudly, he quickly grabbed his goods and disappeared to a check out I guess. Had I been female or frail he would have ignored me, but I am not and it was my go.

[Moos]

SteveT Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

Had I been

> female or frail he would have ignored me, but I am

> not and it was my go.

I disagree. I don't put up with that kind of thing either, and I am entirely female.

[LegalEagle-ish]

Me too Moos - Ive never been one for turning a blind eye while someone is in trouble, and I've always been female as far back as I can remember!

[Marmora Man]

The essence is not to be the "top dog" a la Steve T but to engage and get the crowd on your side thus ensuring that public opinion makes clear to the "wrong doer" that the action is socially unacceptable.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Steve T. did not say that Females tolerate that kind of behaviour or are more likely to not say anything.

He did say that the Guy "would have ignored me" if I had been Female or frail.

He was implying, surely, that a Female WOULD have said something ( otherwise why would the Guy have decided, in his hypothetical scenario, on a course of INaction i.e to ignore Females or the frail.

He was not talking about the responses of females but the fact that the guy would have ignored them, sadly ( i.h.o)

[Moos]

What SteveT was saying was perfectly clear and didn't need to be explained again.

Of course in this hypothetical example none of us actually knows whether this particular man would have ignored a woman or a frail person - neither Steve, nor any of the rest of us.

What I meant was that I believe he was wrong in assuming someone would ignore a woman or a frail person. I don't think that someone's sex or physical state necessarily means that they cannot be perceived to be assertive, and I was offering my own experience as evidence of that. The context also has to be taken into consideration - a public supermarket is one thing - and here one might use Marmora Man's point of getting 'the audience' on side - whereas a dark alley is another.

[SteveT]

I felt the man was a bully, and he may well have done the same before and gotten away with it, and had I not challenged him he would have done so again, and he was big enough to ignore most of the population.

[Moos]

Oh dear, this has become a bit difficult to reply to without risking offending Steve, which I do not want to do.

[????]

I have to say ,certainly in my experience, it is woman rather than men who are more likely to stand up for the stranger against the stranger.

[LegalEagle-ish]

If the person is younger than me (which is more of the popultaion nowadays) - I always use the motherish voice to say what needs to be said but with a hint of youth worker and I am rarely ignored by people doing wrong.

It would not make sense for me to approach someone in an aggressive way as they would most probably already have their adrenaline raised while they are doing whatever it is that needs challenging.

Engaging someone and making them think about what they are doing would be my intention - not trying to boost my own ego by challenging somone in front of an audience.

I've stopped two guys kicking the crap out of another guy in the middle of the night on my own when I was driving past, by making them think of the consequences of kicking him too hard and killing him on a main road with CCTV everywhere. They did stop - and might have carried on around the corner, I don't know, but I couldn't just drive past without doing something.

[davy watts]

It's better to die on your feet then to live on your knees.

[daizie]

It depends on the situation . Sometimes its thankless. A friend intervened when a woman was mugged . The police would not leave him alone, and in the end he wished he'd never bothered, plus the woman accused him of making the situation worse! Sometimes your best really is the worst .

[Alabama]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have to say ,certainly in my experience, it is

> woman rather than men who are more likely to stand

> up for the stranger against the stranger.

I've been on the tube three times where someone was being harrassed by drunk blokes, to the point of fear/upset. I've been the only one to intervene each time and the men were all staring at the floor/newspapers. I'm not judging this though, as I have (rightly or wrongly) felt I would not get any physical repercussions and they might. The bleach incident (see OP) has made me think twice about sticking my oar in though.

[iaineasy]

.

[Steady Eddy]

-

[LegalEagle-ish]

Some little idiot guy grabbed my bum the other day and jogged off as I swore at him. I am pleased to say another guy came over and got angry with the bum grabber on my behalf.

I didn't actually need the back-up but it was nice to know that he was ready to intervene and gave me some moral support as I continiued to F and blind for about ten minutes more.

[PeckhamRose]

Just read all this thread.

I was at the bus stop by Goose Green the other day with about seven other people. A bulky male barged through all of us as the bus arrived, and nearly knocked a woman flying. I immediately pushed him so his momentum to thrust forward was directed away from others, after he had gone into her, so he could not barge into anyone else. He turned on me and threatened me with all sorts of nonsense, swearing and telling everyone what he would do to me, then he walked away. The bus drove off before he had finished. There were now just three of us at the bus stop as this man stormed away. I asked them if - if this man had have physically attacked me - would they have intervened? They did not answer, but I hope they thought about it. I have intervened also, but I always check my escape first!