would you stand up to people?

[Alabama]

After reading the story about the poor woman who had bleach thrown over her, in front of her children, for telling a couple of little kids to be quiet because they were ruining a film, it raises the question of whether to stand up, get involved or just turn a blind eye to things, for fear of repercussions. I remember horrific a story a year or two ago about a man who intercepted theives on his driveway and they killed him there and then, in front of his family.

what would you do?

I've always been of the mind to stand up/get involved/help people if something happened, but the more I hear, I wonder if that's actually a stupid thing to do.

[bignumber5]

Similar story with the chap who got stabbed as he got off a night bus because he had asked hoody-ewoks not to throw chips at his girlfriend. Not living in fear or not living at all? ...

[HAL9000]

My cousins' husband decided to chase a thief who'd stolen a camera from a parked car. They ran into a blind alley. The thief struck him with the camera killing him instantly. My cousin is a widow. Her children are orphans. The thief has evaded capture. Was it worth it? I don't think so.

It's a difficult question. Every case is different, of course. But unless a member of my family or someone close was under immediate threat, I'd think very hard before intervening these days ? and more so if outnumbered.

[RosieH]

I don't think you can base it on a rational decision to be honest, at least I can't.

I've been involved in situations like that 3 times: twice I intervened and it was anger and reflex, I just couldn't stand what I was seeing. I didn't have the time to think it through.

The other time, it still haunts me that I did nothing, even though I'm pretty sure I would have had the crap kicked out of me. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I think we have a responsibility towards our fellow man.

[RosieH]

Cross posted with HAL9000.

For property, probably no. For another person, probably yes.

[Santerme]

Not much call for heroics in Dorset.

Last time I intervened was just off Leicester Square.

My brother and I saw a teenage girl being assaulted by a couple of blokes.

We eventually restrained the attackers until the police arrived, both had knives and were carted off.

My brother is a Royal Marine and I had just retired from the Army, so I guess we were not too intimidated by them.

I think I would do it again, at least until I felt my advancing years outweighted my ability be effective.

[antijen]

HAL9000, What a horrendous thing to happen, can't imagine how your family felt. When I think of my children and how they would react it worries me especially when they have seen me get involved many times. I try to think now, often hoping someone else will intervene, as I've been punched and threatened in the past. I find it very difficult to walk by but have done, but got to say, havent encountered it in ED.

[Marmora Man]

I have intervened to discourage anti social behaviour - drunks on a train surrounded by families swearing and shouting. Asked them to stop as my young family were feeling intimidated - they stopped. Was thanked by many in the carriage who did not wish to confront them.

Similarly I have asked people to turn down / off noisy phones playing tinny music, people with feet on bus seats and so on. Usually the response is OK - occasionally I'm sworn at. I'm seldom supported by other passengers.

The nearest to violence was when I intervened in an argument between a cyclist and car driver - the driver had opened his door into the path of the cyclist and was berating him for damaging the car. I spoke up for the cyclist and offered to be a witness. The driver threatened me with violence and promised to get "my friends from Essex" to "do me over". I was too slow to respond with "I'll ask my friends in the Royal Marines to tackle them" - in the end lots of noise, no fisticuffs and it all melted away.

I believe we should all intervene at this low level of anti social behaviour as it will encourage others to do the same and discourage such behavior - it should also improve civil life. I would hope it would also encourage others to come to the support of victims of more violent behaviour, tho' this requires physical confidence that not all have.

It also helps to be 6'5" and 15+ stone in such situations - more difficult for women and those of less physically intimidating build.

PS: I keep and old cricket bat, a Victorian police truncheon and a sword in the house and would use them to repel possible boarders.

[Keef]

Talking about this on Radio 4 right now.

[KatoTheCat]

each to their own eh?

i understand the horrific potential one is faced with when standing up for themselves or others.

but how has this fear and sense of power (to those who would put you in such a position) arisen?

by people standing up for themselves? not really.

throughout history people have been trampled on, whilst others do the trampling. in one way or another, we would all eventually do this to a person, possibly without realising (most likely in a less severe situation lets hope). but isnt life about standing up for what you find "right" and what you believe "worthy" of such a cause?

it is hard to determine such situations as the many stabbings, and shootings, and whether in such an instance, one would stand up for themselves or others... but without doing so, surely the situation/s will only get worse?

[Alabama]

I still don't know about this one. I always did intervene and probably still would depending on the situation, but i always beg friends and fmaily not to, as the seemingly-rising level of violence scares me.

[sonofnun]

Christ SE22 sounds like a nightmare !

[SteveT]

Sonofnun this happens in all the post codes that I am aware of.

[Harry]

6'5" is exceptionally tall. I'm only 5'1" and have only an old ping pong bat to defend my home

[louisiana]

Get up, stand up

[Marmora Man]

i always beg friends and fmaily not to, as the seemingly-rising level of violence scares me.

But JoJo09 - as has been said before - "All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good people to do noting". Louisianna is right - we must get up and stand up.

[KatoTheCat]

there shouldnt even be a question.

the fact that there is makes me wonder if there's any hope left for this world/country/city/area?

it is not only us who have these problems. ours are miniscule in comparison to some others.

look at africa, where u have military groups killing and raping villages at a time. do we have this problem? should they stand up and fight.

no and yes i believe, they are most likely to lose their lives in such a fight, but living for a few years in complete fear and persecution, is no life at all. we are only a few short steps away from organized crime, at the moment it is sorely unorganized. if on ever road we walked down, we knew, that if any trouble arose, we would not be standing alone. We would have strangers, friends and locals defending our cause. it is a fight, but it is more like a political statement. the politicians and police force can and do do nothing. no offence to them, their position on a matter, is to punish any anti social behaviour!

we HAVE to stand up and be counted... 1.....2.....3.....4

[louisiana]

Marmora Man Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> i always beg friends and fmaily not to, as the

> seemingly-rising level of violence scares me.

>

> But JoJo09 - as has been said before - "All that

> is needed for evil to triumph is for good people

> to do noting". Louisianna is right - we must get

> up and stand up.

Thanks for the kind mention there MM, but I'm afraid this was another outbreak of Lyrical Contamination Syndrome (Marley in this case). See the Lounge Dear Agony Auntie thread.

Though, seriously, I do believe we should do what we can. I've chased handbag snatchers (twice), challenged muggers (rather stupidly!) and generally act before I think in these situations, perhaps. But watching wrong being done without doing anything is not in my nature.

[bignumber5]

I do believe we should do what we can

I agree with the sentiment but not necessarily with the conclusion drawn - if Mrs.number5 and I were to get mugged, for example, I might protect her from harm much more effectively by handing over my wallet as ordered and not getting us a beating. Getting into a resistance type scenario could get us both beaten up/stabbed/insert your gory outcome here, and then how would I have protected her?

Maybe doing what I can in this case is minimising our risk of coming to harm, and realising that it's not worth getting knifed for the rather meagre contents of my wallet.

That said, RosieH is quite right about reactions and their unpredictable nature: I suspect that we have a lot of cross-over with the "protect your home/castle" thread.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Now, I'm not saying I would do this, but in theory..

is it not the casethat most muggigns etc happen because they know you or I will prbably adopt that pragmatic approach to our own lives and our nearest and dearest. Whereas if the chances of them coming across a kamikaze nutter was much higher, they would be less likely to chance it?

Of course for that message to get through, a whole bunch of innocent people will have been the front-line as it were but in the longer term.. it would work wouldn't it?

[Marmora Man]

Whereas if the chances of them coming across a kamikaze nutter was much higher, they would be less likely to chance it?

Is that the "Crocodile Dundee" defence? Where a mugger pulls a knife on him and says "I've got a knife". CD pulls out a machete and says "Call that a knife, mate?"

[SeanMacGabhann]

well ideally that would help!

But I was thinking a more general getting involved. Perhaps kamikaze nutter was too glib a phrase. But if people were to get involved with a "you might get some of us mate, but not all of us" attitude...

I know it's unrealistic but if we could reach a tipping point, I believe it would work

[Jeremy]

Marmora Man could use his antique truncheon or one of his swords (as mentioned on another thread). That would do the trick!

I do agree that if more people stood up to muggers, etc, then less of them would be doing it. In theory it would work, but in practise it ain't gonna happen and I'm not even sure I'd advocate it. Especially if there's a weapon involved or if you're outnumbered.

[bignumber5]

There is a potential butterfly-effect endpoint, though: Because now people stand up to muggers, so if you're going to mug people then you have to mean business and maybe go armed as they might put up a fight. Maybe you need to have a low threshold for using your tool or starting proceedings with a swift whack as these damn people think it's all like standing up to a bully in the playground...

And suddenly the number of muggings has gone down but the number of violent assaults during muggings goes up significantly.

To be clear, I'm not advocating abject cowardice at all times to cover the vague possibility of adverse consequences, I'm just exploring the potential downsides of us collectively smacking a hoody on the nose with a rolled up copy of the guardian - I think it could be a dog that eventually bites back.

[Moos]

We can also stand up in small ways as well as big ways. Would I chase a mugger into a dark alley screaming Come back here, you naughty man, you! No. Would I ask a teenager (politely) to turn his music down on the bus? Yes. The trouble with all of the press about heroes who get stabbed is that people become frightened to intervene on even the slightest of occasions, but the more people are prepared to intervene on small issues, more people will feel that there is a collective set of acceptable behaviours.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure that that was either coherent or particularly meaningful.