Assisted suicide - yea or nay?

[TillieTrotter]

I know it's a complicated subject with lots of arguments against it but ultimately, I think as Moos stated, if intelligent and thorough laws are put in place to make sure it is solely your decision and benefitting only yourself then your human right not to suffer unduly should be upheld.

[Marmora Man]

And libertarianism as usual is a recipe for anarchy...

Regulation is, as usual, a recipe for restricting an individual's freedom of choice.

I do not see the case for regulating death, so I have no proposals for how others might make arrangements to ensure no question of coercion or manslaughter / murder. However, if I, or my family / friends, were to choose this route I would probably ask a solicitor to witness a statement to the effect that "my life in intolerable and I wish, of my own free will, to end it all peacefully and painlessly".

The solicitor might want a medical opinion but given they witness wills and offer an opinion as to the writer's state of mind perhaps not.

[SteveT]

It doesn't seem many years ago since suicide was an illegal act, now it is perfectly legal................

What difference does it make to anyone who wants to end there time, it seems only humane to help the disabled and incapcitated.

[shoshntosh]

we recently had this very situation come up. a close, lifelong family friend was severely injured in an ATV accident. he was left paralysed from the neck down, breathing on a ventilator. he was approaching 60 -- and before the accident very fit, and a farmer, who spent his days doing physical activity (which he loved). he decided rather quickly, after the accident, that he didn't want to live. he asked the doctors to remove the ventilator and they did so. he died, just as he wished.

in some ways, though, he was lucky. because asking to have the ventilator removed did NOT invalidate his life insurance. when my friend's 78 yr old grandfather shot himself after suffering from debilitating parkinson's disease for years... there was no payout for his family.

sorry to make it about money, but for god's sake let these people die with dignity. god knows, having watched my own mother suffer horribly through the end stages of cancer, with her begging us to help her end it... if we would have been able to do so legally, we would have. it's called compassion. and in my view it's barbaric that we don't have assisted suicide.

[Keef]

Quite right.

[Huguenot]

Quite right indeed, but you may be missing the point.

Every pro-suicide argument contains the same emotive examples of people who would be helped by it's implementation. They're all missing the point.

They all go on about "my rights, my rights, my life". They're all missing the point.

The law preventing assisted suicide isn't to spite people in these examples, but to prevent abuse of the law.

Whether you like it or not, there are more people in this country who would abuse such a law than there are those who would benefit from it. Admitting that is half the challenge.

It's the same as capital punishment. The law doesn't query whether some fecker should be terminated for their crimes, it allows for miscarriages of justice to be rectified that can't be done if you've broken some innocent blighter's neck.

[Keef]

Well if you're right, which you probably are, the law bloody well should query anyone being "terminated", fecker or not! That however, is another thread altogether.

[Moos]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Whether you like it or not, there are more people

> in this country who would abuse such a law than

> there are those who would benefit from it.

> Admitting that is half the challenge.

I think that statement needs some proof.

[HAL9000]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ... there are more people in this country

> who would abuse such a law than there are

> those who would benefit from it.

I hope you realise you've just served up your arse on a plate!

Relax, I'm not going to take it out of context and post it as the title of a new thread - oh, but I'm so tempted :)

[Huguenot]

I'll happily retract that private opinion on the pervasiveness of evil if it oils the wheels of debate.

However, as with capital punishment law I will hold my position that if even one individual dies before their time because of abuse of this law then that is one too many - ergo that law should not exist.

Interestingly, my support of our current legal position on capital punishment is at odds with my views on whether it's a valid punishment. I believe that if people murder people, then they enter into a two-contract on the sanctity of life. By depriving another of it, they deprive themselves.

I just don't think a capital punishment law is either workable or reliable. I don't think suicide law is either.

[Keef]

I believe that if people murder people, then they enter into a two-contract on the sanctity of life. By depriving another of it, they deprive themselves.

Hard to disagree with, but I still disagree. Just can't reconcile myself with the taking of a life, whatever a person has done.

Who is going to start this thread?

[Huguenot]

"Just can't reconcile myself with the taking of a life, whatever a person has done. "

Exactly mate, and there's the rub. It just doesn't work, does it? That's the point on assisted suicide.

All of the 'examples' quote black and white hypotheticals, but it just doesn't work in practice.

[Keef]

I think the two are a bit different. Someone being killed as a punishment against their will Vs someone being helped to die because they want to, but can't do it alone.

[macroban]

Huguenot 4 September 2009 06:13AM

This post leaves me uneasy. I sense an undercurrent of Christian coercion to conformity.

In some societies and at some times suicide was considered noble. To help a noble act was a good thing.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

I'd be surprised if Hugenot conformed to Christian mores in the slightest. Whereas I aspire to them (but fail miserably)and object to euthanasia and execution on those grounds.

That notwithstanding, I don't think Hugenot can be gainsayed for pointing out the bleeding obvious: mistakes or worse have happened in the case of capital punishment and would probably occur if euthanasia were legal.

Romans and Japanese are the only instances of 'noble' suicide that I can think of immediately - not sure I'd want to follow suit.

[shoshntosh]

i am disturbed that people are comparing assisted suicide to capital punishment. as keef quite rightly pointed out... they are two very different things indeed. i am dead(!) against capital punishment (and yes, please, someone, have mercy and start the thread) but my examples of assisted suicide (above) are NOT "black and white hypotheticals". they are real.

and, hugenot, i don't see where you get off deciding that we need to accept that there are more people who would abuse such a law than benefit from it? is this a fact? and if so, where do you derive such interesting "facts"?

of course there will be abusers, as there are of any laws. but as with most laws the balance needs to be considered. and on balance i feel that a change in our attitudes towards terminal illness/end of life would benefit our society enormously. mainly in that we would feel supported and empowered to make such a terrifically difficult decision for ourselves should the need arise.

watch your 56 yr old mother vomit diahharrea and writhe in pain and then let's discuss it again.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

I think it's a valid comparison - taking a life, whatever the reasoning, is taking a life.*

*If one holds the view that all human life is sacred.

[i'm desperately trying to find the previous thread on this cos I can't be bothered to spout it all again, but am having no luck with search function at mo.]

[ps, apologies to Hugenot for above impertinent post - it was made after Forum drinks!]

[Huguenot]

Not at all PGC, as you said I'm not trying to be christian about the death penalty, just pointing out that the protagonist has decided that human life is forfeit to meet their own ends. It is only reasonable that such a point of view should be respected and apply equally to the criminals themselves.

It's their decision, not society's.

I'm sorry about your mum shosh, but your description is telling: "watch your 56 yr old mother vomit diahharrea and writhe in pain and then let's discuss it again"

You see that comment's not about your mum, it's about you watching your mum. It suggests that euthansia is more about the viewer's own discomfort rather than the poor victim.

I'm sure you didn't intend that and I apologise for highlighting it, but I believe that's dangerously close to a lot of people's views on euthanasia. We perhaps want to allow people a lifeline from their misery because of ourselves.

I watched my own mother die over a painfully long ten year period that left her mentally and physically incapacitated. Myself and my siblings eventually switched off her life support for many reasons, but I made absolutely sure that none of them were about myself.

[shoshntosh]

but now i think YOU are missing the point.

the reason i was uncomfortable watching that was because she was so uncomfortable and because she wanted to die.

i'm sorry, too, about your mum's experience, which sounds like it wasn't very pleasant either. i wish we had had a switch we could have flipped.

[Huguenot]

I can assure you that there's absolutely nothing trivial about flipping a switch.

[Huguenot]

It may be that this study tells us a little about the psychology of the situation...

Only 47% of people think that a nurse persuading an elderly and infirm patient to change their will in the nurse's favour was dishonest.

So what proportion will believe that persuading a chronically ill person to 'end their suffering' and advantage themselves is also not dishonest?

If people want figures to support my concern about abuse of legalised suicide being widespread, they need only consider the 53% of people who would take advantage of the ill and infirm with a clear conscience.

[iaineasy]

I think yes to assisted suicide.Isn't the right to die as important as the right to live?

[silverfox]

Now the Dutch turn against legalised mercy killing

"Legalised euthanasia has led to a severe decline in the quality of care for terminally-ill patients in Holland, it has been claimed.

Many ask to die 'out of fear' because of an absence of effective pain relief, according to a new book.

Even the architect of the controversial law has admitted she may have made a mistake in pushing it through because of its impact on services for the elderly ..."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1234295/Now-Dutch-turn-legalised-mercy-killing.html

[Keef]

That is sad if it's true, but I don't take that as an argument against assisted suicide, it is just something that should be sorted out.

[silverfox]

True - it's more of an unintended consequence but suggests that if anything the need to guarantee palliative care and pain relief on demand for terminally ill people becomes more important where assisted suicide is available otherwise we're on the slippery slope to euthanasia.