Gary McKinnon - Martyr or Muppet ?

[Mark]

OK so he hacked into 97 US government computers shortly after the 11/9 attacks.

He keeps going back to British courts/House of Lords with different appeals and now they've failed his mum's appealing to the Obama. Personally I'd rather Mr President wasn't asked to step in on this case because it has been through so much of our legal system, any judgement he makes could set a precedent for other cases.

Is his recently diagnosed Asperger's Syndrome real or was it just conveniently used (unsuccessfully) as a get out of jail card after previous appeals failed?

I'm erring on the Muppet side

Or am I being harsh?

[mockney piers]

There was a very good article about the so called Barclays (Nat West? couldn't care enough to remember) 4 who got extradited. The press went razy about unequal extradition treaties, about the orange jump suits and manacles, about the rape in federal penitentiaries.

They got extradited (for crimes they bloody well committed) were put up in hotels paid for by the state (not ours) during the 'remand' period and basically got slaps on wrists.

I suspect this lad will be scared a bit then offered a job.

[louisiana]

The extradition treaty is one-sided. Nothing to do with the individuals involved. If they wouldn't do it for us, why should we do it for them? Another legacy of the so-called special relationship.

Spelling corrected.

[woofmarkthedog]

Sounds like a smart muppet to me. Hacking into U.S defense computer is not easy ( is it?) Aspergers or not anyone must know they will come after you ( movie starring Will Smith/ Tom cruise)don't they?

Take it like a man, then sell the movie rights

W**F

[????]

MP, I know one of the Nat West 4...it wasn't a complete walk in the park, honestly. They also were scapegoats to a degree even though they did do it guvnor.

[Santerme]

This chap was offered a plea bargain to three years, six months of which would be spend in a low grade prison in the US and the balance in the UK, probably painting Scout huts on the South coast.

Now he is facing ten years.

Not very bright, IMHO.

[louisiana]

To address your initial point Mark,

"Now his legal team is arguing his Asperger's syndrome should have been considered by the home secretary when she gave the go-ahead for his extradition in October.

"Mr McKinnon was diagnosed with the condition only last August after an expert in autism watched him in a television interview and contacted his solicitor.

"The initial hunch was confirmed by Professor Simon Baron-Cohen, a leader in the field."

[From the BBC website profile]

So this diagnosis was not initiated by either his legal team or himself/family.

The guy also left school at 17 to become a hairdresser...

[antijen]

Santerme, Where did you hear he was offered this plea bargain, Guatanauma Bay could have been the option. Gary is an ordinary lad, never been involved with any political groups, yes he made a big mistake but it was not his intention to commit the crime he is now accused of. And we all know America is fair and trustworthy, but scout huts or any other soft options was not on offer.

[Administrator]

Ok, I know it's Wikipedia but it says:

Representing McKinnon in the House of Lords on 16 June 2008, David Pannick QC told the Law Lords that the prosecutors had said McKinnon faced a possible 8-10 years in jail if he contested the charges (there were seven counts), but only 37-46 months if he co-operated and went voluntarily to the US. McKinnon also claimed that he had been told that he could serve part of his sentence in the UK if he co-operated. He had rejected the plea bargain offer as no guarantee had been given by the Americans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon

[louisiana]

AFAIK, the extradition treaty as is would not prevent a UK citizen (non-military) from going before a US Military Commission. It's only a subsequent diplomatic note (not part of the Treaty) that suggests otherwise. I also understand there is nothing to prevent the US government from sending any UK citizen extradited to Guantanamo, under any of the current agreements, though I may be wrong.

From what I read in the CPS evaluation of the evidence and case

- Gary accepts he did what is said.

- Gary has also highlighted to UK authorities evidence of many other successful hackers on same systems, probably from China

- UK CPS says there is insufficient evidence to prosecute Gary in UK. In particular, lack of info concerning most of the systems said to be accessed (systems etc. not specified by witnesses), considerable amounts of hearsay 'evidence', non-compliance with ACPO evidence rules, and the alleged value of damage (unsubstantiated by US authorities in any way)

- the CPS accept that there may be grave effects on Gary's mental state should he be extradited etc. But there's nothing they can do about that.

I gain the impression that any 'damage' caused was incidental, not deliberate (he tried to delete file logs for his own access, not other stuff). He just didn't do it very well.

The question should be: Gary McKinnon - Muppet or Terrorist?

He's a muppet with benign psycho-social problems but he's being treated as a potent threat to national security.

Unfortunately, the internet has opened up whole swathes of our citizenry to serious areas of the law, stretching from copyright through libel to national security with some very serious outcomes.

[Santerme]

antijen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Santerme, Where did you hear he was offered this

> plea bargain, Guatanauma Bay could have been the

> option. Gary is an ordinary lad, never been

> involved with any political groups, yes he made a

> big mistake but it was not his intention to commit

> the crime he is now accused of. And we all know

> America is fair and trustworthy, but scout huts or

> any other soft options was not on offer.

It was an offer his lawyers put to him and it was reported widely.

He rejected six months of ping pong and sunshine in a low security prison and ending his sentence in a UK facility.

He would have been out in six months.

Hacking into military computers is not and never will be harmless.

Personallly, i think he will get anything up to ten years now.

From The Times July 31, 2008

Gary McKinnon stands accused of becoming the most accomplished computer hacker in history by crashing the United States army network, but claims only to have been pursuing a fascination with aliens.

The 42-year-old unemployed systems analyst, who broke into US military computers from his bedroom in Wood Green, North London, faces at least ten years in a US jail. He has always claimed that he was seeking information on UFOs and aliens.

He lost his final appeal against extradition yesterday after the law lords were told that he rejected a plea bargain in which he was offered a shorter prison sentence of three or four years in return for pleading guilty. The law lords dismissed Mr McKinnon?s claim that threats made against him by US prosecutors amounted to an abuse of process and refused to quash extradition procedings against him.

Mr McKinnon admits accessing 97 US military and Nasa computers. US prosecutors also allege that he shut down and rendered inoperable 300 computers at a US navy weapons station at a critical time, immediately after the terror attacks of September 11, 2001. His only hope is to persuade the European Court of Human Rights to put a ?stay? on proceedings, pending consideration of his case.

Mr McKinnon said last night that he was sorry for his actions but felt the US reaction was disproportionate. He described his actions as ?misguided? but said it felt ?like a moral crusade?. He said he had not damaged the computer systems, as the US claimed, but had highlighted security problems.

He told BBC Radio 5 Live: ?I?m extremely sorry I did it, but I think the reaction is completely overstated. I should face a penalty in Britain and I?d gladly do my time here. To go from, you know, perhaps a year or two in a British jail to 60 years in an American prison is ridiculous.?

Karen Todner, his solicitor, said: ?Gary McKinnon is neither a terrorist, nor a terrorist sympathiser. His case could have been properly dealt with by our own prosecuting authorities. Instead, we believe that the British Government declined to prosecute him to enable the US Government to make an example of him. American officials involved in this case have stated that they want to see him ?fry?.?

The law lords heard that under the plea bargain he would serve six to twelve months and then be returned to Britain to serve the rest of his sentence. Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood said that, in all, he might serve eighteen months to two years. However, if he were extradited and convicted, he might expect a sentence of between eight and ten years, possibly longer, and would not be repatriated at all.

[louisiana]

As I understand it, the authorities refused to put this in writing and it was not guaranteed.

[KatoTheCat]

(sorry this forum placed this post somewhere else, i can only EDIT, not delete.)

(p.s i think if you are all completely honest, it is all rather ridiculous, extradition is too far, america and guantanamo bay should both be shut down as part of a new UN peace treaty. until this happens... it will be anyone they can find to make an example of.)

[SteveT]

John Lennon was listed as one of the ten most dangerous men in America.

When a harmless scouse balladier is considered to be in that league, can you blame McKinnon's paranoya of travelling west.

[HAL9000]

There may be more to this case than meets the eye. McKinnon may have accessed highly classified information without realising its significance. The American security services may feel the risk that he might inadvertantly convey it to an enemy agent to be unacceptable - especially given his abnormal mental state.

Offhand I can think of a dozen or so pieces of information that would make him more dangerous than Bin Laden in the eyes of the US.

[Huguenot]

REsumably, you can tell us what kind of information this would be without threatening your freedom?

*cowers and trembles*

[HAL9000]

I'm sure you're quite capable of compiling such a list yourself.

Anyway, for example, any classified details about any of the following (amongst many others):

encryption algorithms / protocols / frequencies used to communicate with nuclear missiles / missions

design / geometry of the latest MIRV or other classified thermonuclear warheads

location of / numbers of / yields of warheads / missiles / strike forces

misplaced / lost / stolen NBC weapons

covert foreign agents / spies

suspected spies / terrorists

undercover operatives / operations

covert (defensive / offensive) chemical or biological weapons programs

funding / training / arming of foreign insurgencies / terrorist organisations

political assassinations

surveillance frequencies / stations / satellites / techniques

submarine movements / capabilities / patrol routes / support facilities

advanced weapons / development / research

space-based nuclear weapons

thermonuclear torpedo / artillery shell / briefcase warhead design / geometry

Apollo moon landing hoax

how to knock out US defence computers from a bedroom in North London

contact with aliens / UFOs

Edited because, apparently, this one has been declassified:

laser uranium enrichment technology

[SimonM]

If that were the case then that is even more reason not to return him to the USA, as presumably if he is in possession of this sort of knowledge then the yanks would either want to lobotomise him or lock him up for decades. I think it is appalling he is being deported for something that is not an offence in the UK. We have no legal or moral obligation to abide by US criminal law.

[PeckhamRose]

I think he should be employed by the government to make sure no-one else does it.

Clearly he is a clever so and so. But money will be wasted imprisoning him when he could do so much good in other ways.

But that's me.

[DaveR]

"I think it is appalling he is being deported for something that is not an offence in the UK. We have no legal or moral obligation to abide by US criminal law."

He can't be extradited for conduct that is not an offence in the UK - its a basic rule that is in the 2003 Act. His argument was that he should be prosecuted in the UK (where he could expect a significantly lighter sentence) - the problenm with that argument is that the harm clearly arose in the US, and international law suggests they should have jurisdiction.

I'm no fan of either the current state of US-UK extradition law, or US criminal justice generally, but I have little sympathy with this guy, and he's certainly no martyr.

BTW, is KatotheCat saying america should be shut down? (see above) That seems kind of extreme.

[HAL9000]

PeckhamRose Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think he should be employed by the government to

> make sure no-one else does it.

Just because he's clever enough to break something doesn't mean he's smart enough to fix it.

[Huguenot]

I don't agree with SimonM's views about parochial justice.

I'd like to see some of those Russkie phishers and spammers extradited to the UK to face justice.

Or for that matter some of those Russkie poisoners.

[TE44]

There is a text petition for Gary, anyone wishing to support him should text Gary to 65000, much appreciated, thanks.

[DeepCut]

His Asperger's has been diagnosed by the three top people in this country.

There is no such thing as the NatWest 4, it was the NatWest 3.

He accepted the offer of a short sentence (3-4 years, not 6 months of sunshine and pingpong) but they wouldn't confirm it in writing. Would you trust any government on that one ?? The americans have now said he has no chance of repatriation or even family visits !!! In other words, play it our way or we'll break your back. I admire the guys guts for standing up to them for 8 years.

What harm clearly arose in the US ? The damage is alleged, and due to recent legislative changes in the US there is now no requirement for him to have done any damage so it's no longer an issue that has to be proven.

So he may now be extradited on damage charges that wont be brought up in court because they are now unnecessary in a computer crime case !!!

Anyone that knows anything about the US judicial system knows it's a piece of crap and is 97% plea bargains and ridiculously heavy sentences.

Text gary to 65000. Standard network rates.

http://freegary.org.uk

[daizie]

Arrogant arseholes . America should do the decent thing and give him a job .