Your home is your castle, wherever you're from.

[bigbadwolf]

Last night I watched the programme that looked at the case of Britain's deadliest farmer, Tony Martin and his trial for defending his home. I don't consider myself a liberal but I do agree with reasonable force but I do also believe that if someone enters your property in the dead of night and you genuinely fear for your life then you should be allowed to use deadly force.

Just to bring things into proportion, I was also horrified to learn whilst watching this programme last night that in the U.S state of Texas homeowners are rewarded $5000 if they shoot or kill an intruder.

[annaj]

Is that really true about Texas? That's extraordinary.

As I understand it, BBW, Tony Martin was convicted, because he shot someone in the back as they were running away, which it is very difficult to class as defence of any kind. He also did not call the emergency services, either to report the burglary or the injury, ans the boys body wasn't found until the next afternoon. It was argued, I think, that the boy might have survived his injury had he been found sooner.

I'm not saying that boy wasn't in the wrong and I'm not saying that Martin hadn't suffered repeated break-ins, but I would agree with the jury that what he used that night was not reasonable force.

[david_carnell]

I think the nuance is all in the phrase "reasonable force". As AnnaJ says, Martin shot (with a shotgun btw, not something you want at close range) a boy in the back whilst he was escaping from Martin's house. There was no danger to Martin himself at the time. Therefore his actions were entirely inapporpriate, disproportionate and illegal.

You should not be keeping weapons, such as guns, knives, bats, bows etc by your bedside in case of burgalry. It shows pre-meditation. Picking up a stray saucepan and walloping an intruder round the knees is looked upon more sympathetically by the courts. And rightly so imo.

[bigbadwolf]

I hear what you're saying Anna as in other programmes I've seen on the subject Tony Martin had apparently booby trapped his house and had previous run ins with the police over his negligent attitude to handling/owning firearms. Another point raised is that the shotgun that he used was illegal in the U.K in that it was a pistol gripped pump action and that he discovered it in his car boot with a note attached saying that it was from a concerned friend.

I'll agree that his wasn't a clear cut case but I still think that as citizens we should be allowed to protect our safety as well as our property with, if needs be, deadly force.

I still however think that a thorough police investigation should still be carried out to establish what happened where as in America you're essentially still given a great big pat on the back by the Police and media alike.

[bigbadwolf]

I also agree with you David concerning leaving weapons such as a shotgun lying about the house as that sort of attitude in itself should be cause for having any sort of firearms license revoked and you're right, the reaction should be proportional to the threat but if someone comes into my place with a machette even if their only intention is burglary I wont make any excuses for shooting at them. Fair enough, if they put their hands up or put the weapon on the floor then I'd give them the chance to escape or try and hold them until the police arrived.

[antijen]

I think its dodgy territory as what seems to be the reason for winning his appeal was his state of mind which they believed stemmed from abuse as a child. What worried me about this, is the fact that many paedophiles use this as an excuse, I have never met anyone who at some time in there early life hasnt had shit in it. If someone broke into my house especially when kids were babies,I think if I had a chance I would lift anything, probably try to get to the kitchen for a sharp instrument to defend myself and children. It may not be needed, could be a 16yr old who would do a runner, but the shock of someone being in your house may cause me to react regardless of whether I actually needed to defend myself.

[david_carnell]

Fair enough reaction Antijen tbh.

When I've spoken to legal-people about this previously the general feeling is that you could probably whack a burgular to incapacitate them, without provocation, and get away with it.

But once they're down, if you continued laying into them, you'd be in hot water.

These are laypersons terms obviously.

I think this is pretty fair. Most thieves aren't hulking brutes anyway - more like emaciated smack addicts. They're unlikely to put up much of a fight.

The argument is similar to that of gun/weapon contrl in general. If you make it ok to shoot people in your house, those desperate enough to still rob you will go armed to. A recipe for carnage. Not to mention weapons lying idly around normally find their way into the hands of children.

[daizie]

david_carnell Wrote:

------------------------------------------------------

> I think this is pretty fair. Most thieves aren't

> hulking brutes anyway - more like emaciated smack

> addicts. They're unlikely to put up much of a

> fight.

Like the 2 addicts that broke in and tortured the 2 french students to death ?

[Jah Lush]

Dear Mr Wolf, perhaps this is what you're looking for. Only $39.99.

Actually, I can imagine the husband and wife waking up in the middle of the night, reaching for their guns and shooting each other. Ha ha!

[SeanMacGabhann]

I thought that was a generalisation too far myself DC..

I know you said "most" but daizie nailed it

[daizie]

well, it is very easy to say, when its not actually happening to you . Just imagine the terror you would feel .In a situation where it is you or them, it would be very kind of anyone to chose the thief's life over their own . Im not so kind . My only concern would be not being able to get to the trigger quick enough .

[Jah Lush]

While we're on the subject guns are still illegal in this country. So if you're woken up in the middle of the night and you haven't got a weapon to hand what are you going to do? Assuming you're upstairs in bed and you can hear what you expect to be a burglar downstairs.

[woofmarkthedog]

Jah Lush Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dear Mr Wolf, perhaps this is what you're looking

> for. Only $39.99.

>

> Only In America

-----------------------------------------------------

They are brilliant, do they come in as a swivel action version I wonder?

W**F

[david_carnell]

Well not all guns are illegal but police advice is to 1) Call the police and 2) Barricade yourself in your room.

As for the incident with the French students I think that was an exception rather than a rule when it comes to burglary. But I agree it was perhaps an unwise generalisation on my part.

The gist of my argument remains however. The law, as it stands, gives homeowners/residents more than enough leeway to protect themselves, their loved ones and their property without resorting to Rambo-esque actions.

[Brendan]

Exactly what I?ve done every time it?s happened to me before. Make sure my family are safe then grab a weapon and attack the bastards (the robbers not my family).

[bignumber5]

antijen makes a good point at the end of her post about what adrenaline and the heat of the moment do to what we think our response might be and what it actually ends up being. But the reaction seems to be a crucial element.

I understand that protection of property is covered by self-defence legislation (although I'm sure one of our legal-minded forumites could confirm or correct) and as such, the basic premise (in English Law) is that "the threatened harm must be imminent, although the response need not be spontaneous". Shooting a 16 year old in the back as your dog chases him away from you does not seem to necessarily be reacting to any threatened harm.

As such there isn't really anything in my house that i'd risk getting stabbed by a house-breaker for. But in breaking into my home, you would be threatening the safety of mrs.number5. I might barricade us in the bedroom. I might also beat said visitor to death with the BT homehub that sits next to the front door. As much as I'd like to think that I'm 99.99% sure I'd go for the former, adrenaline is funny stuff.

[????]

...the law and - surprise, surprise - liberal consensus is an ass on this one. Someone invades my house and potentially threatens my family I'm hitting them with anything and so what if I get sued

[Santerme]

Northern Ireland still allows firearms to be purchased for self defence in your home.

In England and Wales this was made illegal in 1946.

I keep a couple of shotguns, licensed naturally, but I guess by the time I had found the key unlocked the cabinet and loaded one, the noise I would have made would scare them away anyway.

Unfortunately Americans are slightly dumber than cow turd when it comes to guns.....

A statement from Joe Horn reads, "The events of that day will weigh heavily on me for the rest of my life. My thoughts go out to the loved ones of the deceased." (KHOU)

Man Shoots Intruders

Audio tape of a 911 call captures a man in the act of fatally shooting two intruders at his neighbor's home. A Houston grand jury is deciding his fate. Russ Mitchell reports.

(CBS) The 911 call came from a Pasadena, Tex., resident, who alerted police to two burglary suspects on a neighbor's property. Before he hung up, two men were dead by his hand.

Joe Horn, 61, told the dispatcher what he intended to do: Walk out his front door with a shotgun.

"I've got a shotgun," Horn said, according to a tape of the 911 call. "Do you want me to stop them?"

"Nope, don't do that - ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?" the dispatcher responded.

"Hurry up man, catch these guys, will you? 'Cause I'm ain't gonna let 'em go, I'm gonna be honest with you, I'm not gonna let 'em go. I'm not gonna let 'em get away with this ----."

Shortly after, Horn said he sees one suspect was standing in front of his house, looking at it from the street.

"I don?t know if they?re armed or not. I know they got a crowbar 'cause that's what they broke the windows with. ... Man, this is scary, I can't believe this is happening in this neighborhood."

He gets more agitated. The dispatcher asks if he can see the suspects but they had retreated into the target's house, out of view: "I can go out the front [to look], but if I go out the front I'm bringing my shotgun with me, I swear to God. I am not gonna let 'em get away with this, I can't take a chance on getting killed over this, OK? I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna shoot."

"Stay inside the house and don?t go out there, OK?" the dispatcher said. "I know you're pissed off, I know what you're feeling, but it's not worth shooting somebody over this, OK?"

"I don?t want to," Horn said, "but I mean if I go out there, you know, to see what the hell is going on, what choice am I gonna have?

"No, I don?t want you to go out there, I just asked if you could see anything out there."

The dispatcher asks if a vehicle could be seen; Horn said no. The dispatcher again says Horn should stay inside the house.

Almost five minutes into the call, police had not arrived.

"I can?t see if [the suspects are] getting away or not," Horn said.

Horn told the dispatcher that he doesn?t know the neighbors well, unlike those living on the other side of his home. "I can assure you if it had been their house, I would have already done something, because I know them very well," he said.

Dispatcher: "I want you to listen to me carefully, OK?"

Horn: "Yes?"

Dispatcher: "I got ultras coming out there. I don't want you to go outside that house. And I don't want you to have that gun in your hand when those officers are poking around out there."

Horn: "I understand that, OK, but I have a right to protect myself too, sir, and you understand that. And the laws have been changed in this country since September the First and you know it and I know it."

Dispatcher: "I understand."

Horn: "I have a right to protect myself ..."

Dispatcher: "I'm ..."

Horn: "And a shotgun is a legal weapon, it's not an illegal weapon."

Dispatcher: "No, it's not, I'm not saying that, I'm just not wanting you to ..."

Horn: "OK, he's coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I'm sorry, but he's coming out the window. "

Dispatcher: "No, don't, don't go out the door, Mister Horn. Mister Horn..."

Horn: "They just stole something, I'm going out to look for 'em, I'm sorry, I ain't letting them get away with this ----. They stole something, they got a bag of stuff. I'm doing it!"

Dispatcher: "Mister, do not go outside the house."

Horn: "I'm sorry, this ain't right, buddy."

Dispatcher: "You gonna get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don't care what you think."

Horn: "You wanna make a bet?"

Dispatcher: "Stay in the house."

Horn: "There, one of them's getting away!

Dispatcher: "That's alright, property's not something worth killing someone over. OK? Don't go out the house, don't be shooting nobody. I know you're pissed and you're frustrated but don't do it."

Horn: "They got a bag of loot."

Dispatcher: "OK. How big is the bag?" He then talks off, relaying the information.

Dispatcher: "Which way are they going?"

Horn: "I can't ... I'm going outside. I'll find out."

Dispatcher: "I don't want you going outside, Mister..."

Horn: "Well, here it goes buddy, you hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going."

Dispatcher: "Don't go outside."

On the tape of the 911 call, the shotgun can be heard being cocked and Horn can be heard going outside and confronting someone.

"Boom! You're dead!" he shouts. A loud bang is heard, then a shotgun being cocked and fired again, and then again.

Then Horn is back on the phone:

"Get the law over here quick. I've now, get, one of them's in the front yard over there, he's down, he almost run down the street. I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice! ... Get somebody over here quick, man."

Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, are you out there right now?"

Horn: "No, I am inside the house, I went back in the house. Man, they come right in my yard, I didn't know what the --- they was gonna do, I shot 'em, OK?"

Dispatcher: "Did you shoot somebody?

Horn: "Yes, I did, the cops are here right now."

Dispatcher: "Where are you right now?"

Horn: "I'm inside the house. ..."

Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, put that gun down before you shoot an officer of mine. I've got several officers out there without uniforms on."

Horn: "I am in the front yard right now. I am ..."

Dispatcher: "Put that gun down! There's officers out there without uniforms on. Do not shoot anybody else, do you understand me? I've got police out there..."

Horn: "I understand, I understand. I am out in the front yard waving my hand right now."

Dispatcher: "You don't have a gun with you, do you?

Horn: "No, no, no."

Dispatcher: "You see a uniformed officer? Now lay down on the ground and don't do nothing else."

Yelling is heard.

Dispatcher: "Lay down on the ground, Mister Horn. Do what the officers tell you to do right now."

Two days later, Horn released a statement through an attorney.

?The events of that day will weigh heavily on me for the rest of my life," it said. "My thoughts go out to the loved ones of the deceased.?

The identities of the men killed were released Friday.

They are Miguel Antonio Dejesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30. Official records show that each of them had a prior arrest in Harris County for drug offenses.

The men were reportedly shot at a distance of less than 15 feet.

A woman who lives nearby who asked not to be identified told CBS News affiliate KHOU correspondent Rucks Russell that she always saw Horn as a grandfather figure. "He is the guardian of the neighborhood," she said. "He takes care of all our kids. If we ever need anything, we call him.?

But according to Tom Lambright, Horn?s attorney and a friend for more than four decades, he?s the one in need now. ?He just needs everyone to know he?s not a villain, he?s not a bad guy,? Lambright said.

He went on to say that Horn voluntarily gave an extensive video statement to police immediately following the shooting.

Horn was not taken into custody after the shooting. A Harris County grand jury will decide if charges are to be filed.

Lambright says Horn acted in complete and total self defense and has nothing to hide.

Local opinion has been passionate on both sides of the shooting.

One letter to the Houston Chronicle said, "He didn't shoot them in the legs, to make sure they did not run away, or hold them at gunpoint until police arrived. No, he was judge, jury and executioner."

Another letter writer praised Horn, saying, "Where does the line form to pin a medal on Joe Horn? I want to get in line." Another wrote, "Let's get rid of the police force and just hire Joe Horn!"

Support for Horn was also running about 2-1 in an online survey of readers on the KHOU Web site.

The incident may prove a test for a new law recently passed in Texas which expands the right of citizens to use deadly force.

Under Texas law, people may use deadly force to protect their own property or to stop arson, burglary, robbery, theft or criminal mischief at night.

But the legislator who authored the "castle doctrine" bill told the Chronicle it was never intended to apply to a neighbor's property, to prompt a "'Law West of the Pecos' mentality or action," said Republican Sen. Jeff Wentworth. "You're supposed to be able to defend your own home, your own family, in your house, your place of business or your motor vehicle."

[KatoTheCat]

im not allowed home anymore...

[Keef]

Only just seen this thread, and remember this case well.

I agree with Anna & David that the farmer was basically in the wrong, BUT, I think it is very hard to apply a strict black & white law to this situation.

The man had been terrorised, it was the middle of the night, and they were in his house. Who knows what was going through his head? It may have been "I'm going to kill you, you little b@stards", or it may have been "Oh God, Oh God, Oh God". It is hard to say in the cold light of day, whilst sitting in my office, how he should have behaved, but in that situation...

Mrs Keef has a real fear of intruders, and if someone did come in, I could easily picture her using the dirty big knife she sometimes has under the bed if she felt she or her baby were threatened!

I don't believe one should attack an intuder, but I find it hard to condemn them for it.

[DaveR]

See here for a very good explanation for the English law on self-defence, and why it works well on the whole. Not many householders get charged in relation to assaults on burglars, and of the few that do I suspect a fair few are acquitted. Ultimately, if you wake up and find a stranger in your house, a few good whacks with whatever is to hand is highly unlikely to get you into trouble. Once someone is running away, its difficult to argue that you are acting in self-defence or in the prevention of crime and you're likely to be in a bit of bother.

[chantelle]

factcheck please:

>

Actually, some random (nutcase) guy made an offer 15 years ago to make these payments if someone was found to have been acting in self-defense whilst shooting an intruder. Did he ever make such a payment and is he still making the offer today? very doubtful. This is such a typical example of some crazy report on those crazy Americans and their guns that has little basis in fact.