Is there a God?

[Marmora Man]

There is no God

Our purpose in life is, like all living organisms, to ensure the continuation of our particular life form.

We are here on this planet by chance.

We are (usually) thinking and intelligent beings.

We should, as individuals, as families, as communities, as states and as a world, maximise the good we do and minimise the harm we do - not in response to some ancient rule book handed down to a chap with a beard but because it makes sense.

[Jeremy]

Brendan Wrote:

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> The way I see it is it?s doesn?t only have 2 sides

> nor is it an argument.

Yes I suppose there are many different perspectives. But to say it's not an argument - I would actually say it's one of the great debates of our times. Unfortunately it's one which will probably never end, because it's impossible to prove or disprove something which cannot be observed or measured.

That doesn't mean it's a pointless debate though. When you have wars and violence with religion at it's root... schools teaching creationism instead of evolution... countries governed by religious law... morals dictated by scripture over common sense and empathy... widespread oppression... misguided people valuing mythology over and above science. Why shouldn't people stand up and point out the lunacy of it all?

[Narnia]

I think you are confusing religion with God. Religions talk about God, tell you what God will do if you don't follow his/their laws..............but heck none of them show you God. You have to die first according to them. Meet him in heaven. What a cop out. Nobody has come back and told me what happened after they died.

That doesn't mean there isn't a God.

[Brendan]

Ah you see now you?re talking about the relevance of religion. That?s a completely different story.

You don?t really need god for religion.

[Brendan]

sorry cross post there. I was responding to Jeremy.

[mockney piers]

You're in the realms of metaphysics rather than rationality there MM by claiming that continuation of the species is purposeful.

And why does doing good as oppose to harm make sense? Nature is by definition savage, why shouldn't you be, clearing the land of my competitors and impregnating their females would surely be a much better way of furthering my genes. It worked wonders for Genghis Khan.

Sometimes I suspect that you're just a big softy at heart.

[Brendan]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> ... clearing the land of my

> competitors and impregnating their females would

> surely be a much better way of furthering my

> genes. It worked wonders for Genghis Khan.

That sounds like fun. I may give it a go this weekend.

[Damian]

Very valid point in the opening entry.

If there's no (meaningful to our human intelligence) afterlife, there's no logical, philosophical or other argument to tell someone that they cannot do with their life - AND WHAT'S MORE - with anyone else's life WHATEVER they like as if the long run everything turns to nothingness, then nothing matters.

This obviously does not prove that there is God, but shows that the postulate of God (and all that is involved in the concept of an omnipotent, benevolent and eternal Person) is most natural, normal and, I believe, necessary. Without it you either turn into an animal, madman or an empty man.

[Damian]

By the way, what would be the most consitent thing to do by atheist 'environmentalists', those who believe that humans are the planet's biggest problem?

Shouldn't they advocate a massive 'final solution' for us all - as there's no after life, what does it matter to us when we go - and in this way save - for a little longer while, that is - the earth they obsess about?

[Jeremy]

Damian - you're saying that the only reason to "do the right thing" is to be rewarded in an afterlife. I fundamentally disagree with what you say, people do not need a carrot and a stick to force them to behave.

Religious texts do not teach us morals - or at least they certainly should not. For example, anyone who takes the teachings of the old testament at face value will end up with a seriously weird code of conduct (after all, the God of the old testament was a jealous mass murderer!)

You do not need to be religious and fear punishment in the afterlife to be a good person. I would say that people should derive their morals from experience, empathy, understanding of others. Actually, most people like to do the right thing by their fellow man simply because it makes us feel good about ourselves.

[mockney piers]

"Without it you either turn into an animal, madman or an empty man."

You're describing something like 75%+ of the uk population.

I know the daily mail would have us believe we're all animals, but I happen to think most people I meet are pretty nice, god or no god. In fact it's the last thing i think about, i generally judge people on how they are as people.

[Brendan]

So we?re back onto, ?What?s the point of it all?? and ?Do people need direction and meaning??

Which I assumed were the questions most of us were contemplating when we weren?t paying attention in primary school maths and had decided to give the topic of communism vs capitalism a rest for an afternoon.

As for the question of, ?what the hell is everything or is ?is? the correct question to ask and are terms like ?correct? only relative so possibly meaningless, etc?? well I logged on this morning hoping you guys would have cracked it by now so that I could impress my friends with the ultimate knowledge of existence around the bbq this afternoon. But alas we seem no closer to proving a theory of everything than we were yesterday afternoon. I am quite frankly disappointed in all of you.

[mockney piers]

The god of light entertainment Bobby McFerrin said "don't worry be happy". Works for me.

[Marmora Man]

This obviously does not prove that there is God, but shows that the postulate of God (and all that is involved in the concept of an omnipotent, benevolent and eternal Person) is most natural, normal and, I believe, necessary.

So your argument is - mankind needs a god therefore there is a god? Seems like a circular argument to me.

[mockney piers]

I think it's called begging the question isnt it?

[macroban]

I'm with Pascal.

[antijen]

Science to me is connected with life, thats an overwhelming feeling, I cannot connect that with the arrogance that surrounds this scientific society, where proof seems to be the aim, always looking for facts, once reached, taken a high moral ground. Morals comes from having empathy from peoples suffering regardless of your own, seeing opposites not only as good or bad. There are many subjects ridiculed by the scientists because they are fixed on having to absolutely know the answers, no understanding, no theory.

Why when they studied 6 people who were born with parts of there brain missing, parts that had absolutely been connected with things they say were conrolled by movement, speech etc. They followed these people in a documentary and they were all leading normal lives.

Why when people who have dreams where they absolutely refuse to do something because the dream was so vivid, only for the tragedy to played out exact.

Death and not knowing, has been part of the religous control on people.

Belief is an individual thing, no theories except death is part of life everyday.

[matthew123]

"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him." Voltaire

[Jeremy]

I don't buy into Pascal's Wager. Surely if there is a God, he will know what we are all thinking - therefore he would know that the individual was not a true believer. As Richard Dawkins said, Pascal's Wager is basically just cowardly bet hedging!

[macroban]

Pascal's Wager is the only one on offer at the bookies. Take it or leave it.

Jermey,

You asserted a couple of axioms in you last post:

(1) God is omniprescient,

(2) God is interested in the lives and outcomes of us worms.

[annaj]

I think that's a rather narrow minded view of science, antijen. For me science is not about finding proof in order to take the moral high ground. Far from it, it is about an endless and exciting curiosity and the search for the truth. I entirely accept that there is much that can't yet be expained by science, and may never be, but that just makes the journey and the attempt all the more exciting and necessary.

As for empathy for people's suffering, I would say that is exactly what drives many scientists, particularly those in medical fields. From your posts elsewhere it is clear that you don't put much faith in the the medical community, but I would ask you to open your mind a little and consider the possiblity that many doctors are motivated, not by money (certainly not in this country) or by arrogance, or by a desire to control and dictate, but by a true vocational desire to do what is best for their patients.

Neither do I think being a scientist necessarily dictates belief. I know scientist that cover the full spectrum of beliefs, from uncompromising atheist to completely dogmatic followers of various religions. Each finding their own way of marrying together and justifying their scientific and religious beliefs.

As far the original question is concerned, despite my scientific tendancies, this is a mystery I am happy not to solve. I am a happy agnostic. I am not religious and don't need a reward or punshment system to live my life in a moral and ethical way. I am motivated, not by the promise of heaven, but by the intrinsic desire to be the best that I can be, to be happy and to make others happy (although, obviously, I'm not always sucessful in all or any of those aims) and the belief that the world is essentially an amzing place. But I also don't feel the need to entirely reject the idea that there could be some kind of overriding reason or divine force. I don't know and I happy with that.

[Narnia]

What makes you think he needs/wants you to believe in him? I think, if he exists then he would be much more interested in you knowing him/her/it! From memory it was always my mother who seemed to know what I was 'thinking'.

[Narnia]

I think this is my favourite sentence in this thread!

[HAL9000]

Marmora Man Wrote:

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> Our purpose in life is, like all living organisms,

> to ensure the continuation of our particular life

> form.

You are a Scientologist and I claim my free personality test! :)

[Narnia]

Why is the national anthem called God Save the Queen? Why when someone dies, we write RIP. Peace......where? Bobby Robson no longer exists apart from in people's memories if you were to believe what some people write here. Others might say he is 'up there' managing a team to take on the Devil's XI! If there is a heaven then how could it be more amazing than our planet, if we didn't f**k it up so much with greed and power. As Cat Stevens once wrote 'the answer lies within'. Not that I'm advocating the religion he turned to or any religion for that matter.