Is there a God?

[Huguenot]

I think you're clutching at straws here Silverfox. Science is a process, it's the activity that humans engaged in that facilitated the rescue.

If they hadn't praised the Lord they'd still have been rescued.

If they hadn't engaged in science they'd still be right where they were, and dead.

I think you should be proud of the baboon analogy Silverfox, as it shows there's hope for you yet.

[mockney piers]

weirdly, whilst interweb trawling as I see out my days waiting for my redundant life to begin, I found this little gem.

It's a chap selling his own book admittedly, but there are some interesting ideas.

He's basically playing with the idea of 'technology as an autonomous system', bestowing science with the sort of personality that Silverfox seems to be doing.

A couple of his conclusions (or at least playful theories) include:

"Our genes have co-evolved with our inventions. In the past 10,000 years alone, in fact, our genes have evolved 100 times faster than the average rate for the previous 6 million years. This should not be a surprise. As we domesticated the dog (in all its breeds) from wolves and bred cows and corn and more from their unrecognizable ancestors, we, too, have been domesticated. We have domesticated ourselves. Our teeth continue to shrink (because of cooking, our external stomach), our muscles thin out, our hair disappears. Technology has domesticated us. As fast as we remake our tools, we remake ourselves. We are co-evolving with our technology, and so we have become deeply dependent on it. If all technology-every last knife and spear-were to be removed from this planet, our species would not last more than a few months. We are now symbiotic with technology."

"Technologies are like organisms that require a sequence of developments to reach a particular stage. Inventions follow this uniform developmental sequence in every civilization and society, independent of human genius. You can't effectively jump ahead when you want to. But when the web of supporting technological species are in place, an invention will erupt with such urgency that it will occur to many people at once. The progression of inventions is in many ways the march toward forms dictated by physics and chemistry in a sequence determined by the rules of complexity. We might call this technology's imperative."

Slightly bonkers, but interesting. You should have words with him Silverfox, he's teetering on the brink of belief (though possibly of a machine god, the Loa of William Gibson fame perhaps?) I reckon ;-)

http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/004749.php

[HAL9000]

I can't understand why Hugo and mockney seem unable to grasp Silverfox's point, which I feel is an interesting and valid observation based firmly in the (scientific) realm of behavioural psychology?

Also, the ideas quoted above about technology are very insightful - far from even slightly bonkers, in my view.

I think sometimes your interpretations may be too literal - especially when others are expressing their ideas creatively?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Hal

Are you the doctor in Shutter Island?

I've read silverfox's posts many many times now and I am still no wiser. It is a lesson in obfustication

take the simpler lines

"There's no science involved here. The baboon is using its wits and a tool to achieve an objective. "

using wits and tools IS science.

Maybe I am stupid Hal - but can your summarise the insight here? As far as I can see Huguenot and Mockney have grasped them in their entirety. It feels like Gillian McKeith telling me I don't understand food like she does

[HAL9000]

I would say that baboons are not capable of applying scientific methodology - their actions (even the use of tools or simple learning abilities) are guided by instinct.

My take on Silverfox's original point: the human will to survive is often inspired by irrational ideas - such as religion. In the case of the Chilean miners that was clearly an important factor in their minds and in those of the local community, some of whom took part in the rescue.

The fact that technology was employed is not in question; it is merely a different facet of the event that is not relevant to this thread.

The study of what makes humans tick, their beliefs, motivations, hopes and fears is grist for the behavioural psychology mill.

[mockney piers]

Sounds to me like the thinking of someone who believes in the exceptional status of mankind, conferred on us by our loving God perhaps.

We're just primates you know, I'm not sure what the difference is between the baboon's stick and man's flint tools. Especially as it is taught behaviour passed down generations of the troupe making it quite specifically a skill not instinct.

I love your hints that something esoteric transcends the nonsense actually being written down, but yet further lack of clarification only serves to detract from the argument.

I sense in there the idea that it is a divine strength that gives mankind a will to live, and the existence of the will to live is evidence of this. Sounds like begging the question if you ask me.

[SeanMacGabhann]

the human will to survive isn't "inspired" by anything tho, is it?

[HAL9000]

Survivors often appear to view it subjectively as inspired - in this case - by the religious beliefs of the Chilean miners (and most of their friends, family and rescuers).

We are talking about people?s beliefs here, aren?t we?

[Huguenot]

I think we've just come full circle. As was said a page ago, they can believe whatever they want, it was still the appliance of science and the industry of mankind that got them out of that mine.

God would have left them to starve.

[HAL9000]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> Sounds to me like the thinking of someone who

> believes in the exceptional status of mankind,

> conferred on us by our loving God perhaps.

One of the reasons we are different from other species is our ability to contemplate supernatural forces and deities. In that respect and within the context of this thread, man is exceptional - to the limit of our knowledge.

> We're just primates you know, I'm not sure what

> the difference is between the baboon's stick and

> man's flint tools. Especially as it is taught

> behaviour passed down generations of the troupe

> making it quite specifically a skill not instinct.

Yet all of the evidence suggests that mimicry of tool use by non-humans is an instinctive ability - unless you have scientific evidence to the contrary. Hint - a paper by a scientifically astute baboon would be very helpful here :)

In fact, tool use is not confined to primates: it has been observed in lower mammals and birds. It may be one of the instincts that helped man develop beyond sticks and stones.

The overlap between instinct and intellect goes to the heart of this discussion: we know that survival is a powerful instinct yet we have the ability to rationalise or irrationalise it.

> I love your hints that something esoteric

> transcends the nonsense actually being written

> down, but yet further lack of clarification only

> serves to detract from the argument.

On the contrary, I am merely trying to crystallise the argument for you.

> I sense in there the idea that it is a divine

> strength that gives mankind a will to live, and

> the existence of the will to live is evidence of

> this. Sounds like begging the question if you ask me.

I think I see where you may be failing to comprehend - we are discussing human perceptions here, surely, not the actual intervention of supernatural forces?

Excuse the fisk - it's merely instinctive behaviour on my part.

[Mick Mac]

574 posts and still no answer on the big question.

[Ladymuck]

You are correct Mick Mac. But at least we know that Homer Simpson is a Catholic. One less thing to worry about.

@ Our Esteemed Chair:

I have been chided in the past for quoting Homer Simpson in the Drawing Room. However, this latest news comes from the Vatican's own daily broadsheet. Under the circumstances, I trust you will allow this post to stand.

Forever your obedient(ish) servant.;-)

[HAL9000]

Curious - could Osservatore Romano's Jesuit journalist have missed all of the episodes in which a Menorah appears in the Simpson household?

[Ladymuck]

It's a possibility. Or, whilst not missing the relevant episodes, he simply didn't know what it was? Assumed it was merely another ornament perhaps? :))

[Loz]

Ladymuck Wrote:

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> You are correct Mick Mac. But at least we know

> that Homer Simpson is a Catholic. One less thing

> to worry about.

>

No he's not!

[Ladymuck]

OK, OK! I stand corrected...am not 100% up-to-date on this highly (dare I say)...ahem...cardinal matter. So, dear Homer is not a Catholic. Any advance on Jewish?

[Ladymuck]

PS: hang on in there Esteemed Chair!

[????]

Classic Mid-West Presybeterian(sp?)

[Narnia]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> 574 posts and still no answer on the big question.

No wonder there isn't when people connect the question to religion.

[katie1997]

Narnia Wrote:

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> In 100 years we will all be dead, most likely!

> What will the point of our existence have been? Is

> there an afterlife? Is there reincarnation? Is

> there a God? Discuss!

No. There isn't one. I just skipped 20 pages but hey, who's counting?

Can we discuss the Diamond Synchrotron now, please?

Edit: in the scheme of ... everything. I forgot that all important r

[Mick Mac]

Narnia Wrote:

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> Mick Mac Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > 574 posts and still no answer on the big

> question.

>

> No wonder there isn't when people connect the

> question to religion.

Now you are having a laugh Delan. wtf does that mean ?

[Narnia]

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Narnia Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Mick Mac Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > 574 posts and still no answer on the big

> > question.

> >

> > No wonder there isn't when people connect the

> > question to religion.

>

> Now you are having a laugh Delan. wtf does that

> mean ?

I leave you to work it out Mick.

[jctg]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> 574 posts and still no answer on the big question.

Not only do you expect an answer but you expect one on the East Dulwich Forum???

[Ridgley]

The answer to your question, is when you die you will find out :)

[Narnia]

Ridgley Wrote:

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> The answer to your question, is when you die you

> will find out :)

How do you know that? I bet you don't!