oh no - sleep again...

[snowboarder]

Whilst I have no end of issues with this bringing up baby lark (why did I not think harder about this?!) most pressing for retention of sanity is sudden bad sleeping...

So 16 week old bubs used to be pretty good, considering everything else. At about 8 -10 weeks went down at 7, woke once for feed, then awake early but manageable. Then the weather got hot....woke twice...then we put him in a bigger cot (outgrown moses basket!) but still in our room. This week has been getting worse - and last night (today?) he went down at 7, woke crying crying at 9.30, 12, 2.45....each time I fed him to sleep (as normal - is this bad?) but when he again woke at 3.30 I just patted him and after an hour-ish he fell asleep. Awake again at 5. Ignored him. At 6 he started properly crying. Now we're having breakfast together before 7am feed and I'm BROKEN. Please help. Why has it got worse? Is the feed to sleep routine bad? He doesn't really nap in the day...argh..

I'm even having crazy thoughts about actually paying someone to help me...

(nice tidy discussion room!)

[Fuschia]

As babies get bigger, their sleep pattern does change. Plus you possibly have teething thrown into the mix, or he's getting ill maybe. I always find a terrible night is thankfully a one off (had both twins wake when I went to bed last night, not off till 1, then one and other woke from 4aM. I gave up and handed them over to Mr F at 5.30am.

There are people who will say feeding a baby to sleep is BAD, me I think it's very natural and I have always done it, it is very lovely in many ways but it does tend to mean the baby gets used to having you there to soothe it to sleep and whne it gets to the stage where it enters light sleep every 45mins, as it does, then it needs your help to get back off again.

The gentle approach is to gently teach other sleep associations - a bedtime routine, maybe with a bath, a blanket or soft toy, maybe a special CD. Try to move to where the baby doesn't fall asleep feeding, but comes off the breast (or bottle) sleepy but awake. Establishing this will mean at night you can move away from having to feed each time, eventually to a shush and a pat when needed (via some cuddling and walking)

Elizabeth Pantley's Book No Cry Sleep Solution is very good.

http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth/

I don't hold with letting a baby cry (beyond a few minutes when over-tired and protesting, or just grumbling a bit on waking and might still go back off) although "sleep training" is a whole industry.

Human babies are mammals and designed to be with their parents at night, light sleeping in an evolutionary practice to keep them safe from wolves etc...

Leaving them to cry raises levels of stress hormones and permanently affects brain chemistry. :-(

Re daytime napping, good naps will help with night time sleep... while I'm not a great fan of rigid "out of the book" routine, but having some pattern to yor days if you don't already, might encourage him to start to nap better.. again, as babies get older they change and 16w is still quite young... a daytime pattern emerged for mine from about 4/5m.

One guide is wake for 2 hours, nap... awake for 3 hours... nap... then bed 4h after waking. Mine are still braodly on that sort of schedule.

You can encourage napping at the times you'd like by going for a walk with the buggy, or both getting into bed with the curtaisn drawn...

Again, a baby might wake after 45 mins nap, grouching, and need help getting back off to sleep for a longer nap.

xx

[Fuschia]

http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth/links/PantleyNoCryBooklet.pdf

[Belle]

agree with Fuschia that sorting out the daytime naps should help - around about the 3/4month mark I realised they were crucial and am a big fan of 'sleep begets sleep' - yesterday for example, my 6 month old only had cat naps (less than 30 mins), about 3 or 4, as opposed to one short one in the morning, one longish one around lunchtime and a shortish one in afternoon. The latter tends to mean he sleeps well at night, whereas after yesterday he was a nightmare, overtired from about 3 and screaming, and he woke in the night several times and up early today. Thankfully we're in a new routine where my husband takes him in the morning so I got some more sleep.

[sb]

.

[snowboarder]

Thanks for advice- daytime naps generally are 3 (maybe 4) 30-45 min cat naps...I'm not sure how to extend them, and do notice he's tired about 2 hrs after waking up. I do rock him to sleep in my arms though (back breaking - he's not light!) - another baddy I suppose!

I thought the waking was because he was not feeding well during the day (pulling off, crying, annoying!) and wanting to stock up at night but yesterday he both fed quite well and had 4 naps, and didn't really want his morning feed, so bang goes that theory.

I do seriously feel he's been sent to test me...currently he's winning....

(used to snowboard yep - in my naivety thought would continue...but maybe not!)

[Mellors]

Fuschia Wrote:

> Leaving them to cry raises levels of stress

> hormones and permanently affects brain chemistry.

> :-(

>

>

Surely thats not true? How does it permanently affect brain chemistry?

[Fuschia]

.

dup post deleted

[Fuschia]

Mellors Wrote:

> Surely thats not true? How does it permanently

> affect brain chemistry?

http://books.google.com/books?id=jDLzs0LqlawC&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=stress+crying+baby+brain+chemistry&source=bl&ots=xgXtvImX-F&sig=6XuGv0y5k0d2NuOzk3WE4d4s71w&hl=en&ei=zVdxSv3tA9GfjAeB1YGrDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/should-we-leave-babies-to-cry-1700132.html

WE're talking about prolonged crying with noone coming to help, as opposed to the normal crying and complaining babies use to communicate.

[Fuschia]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1083020.ece (For anyone guilty their baby is in their bed!)

[Moos]

I do think that this must mean babies that are repeatedly left to cry for prolonged periods of time, though there's no data on how long/how often given in the article. All babies regardless of how gently we treat them cry and cry and cry - if that damaged us permanently, the species would have died out long ago. We've all paced the floor with a screaming child trying everything we can to get him or her to stop crying and this can happen night after night - apparently with no ill effects.

I'm not advocating being cruel to your child! but just want to put some (to me) fairly obvious logic into a discussion topic that makes people feel terribly guilty.

snowboarder - you have my utmost sympathy, it's so hard. I agree with Belle that my experience showed that getting into a good routine with naps immediately led to better sleep at night. But my baby was much older when he managed it. Try to get some help with your own rest if you possibly can.

Oh... and yes, you WILL get back to your relatively normal life and I'm sure including snowboarding. Maybe not too soon - but one day!

[Moos]

Oh, and just wanted to add - not accusing the ever-valuable and interesting Fuschia of trying to make anyone feel guilty, but sometimes discussions about crying do go in that direction.

I salute you, ma'am. :)-D

[Fuschia]

Interesting piece re baby sleeping: http://www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T070200.asp

[Fuschia]

Moos Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I do think that this must mean babies that are

> repeatedly left to cry for prolonged periods of

> time, though there's no data on how long/how often

> given in the article. All babies regardless of

> how gently we treat them cry and cry and cry - if

> that damaged us permanently, the species would

> have died out long ago. We've all paced the floor

> with a screaming child trying everything we can to

> get him or her to stop crying and this can happen

> night after night - apparently with no ill

> effects.

Agreed... of course babies DO cry., we can't feel guilty about that... the thing is, adopting a policy where we're told it's alright (even necessary) to LEAVE them to cry, against our instincts, is actually bad for them.

That's very different to the feelings of a baby which is crying because it's is tired ill but has someone there, comforting it.

And of course, some babies do need to cry for a moment or two when over-tired (one of mine does) ... just giving him a few minutes to settle isn't wrong, he actually doesn't want to be picked up at those moments, he cries almost to tune out noise and distraction, i think.

[Fuschia]

Hope this isn't going too much off topic, SB! Not sure whether I should start a new thread, but just remembered this study into the effect of different models of babycare, on crying levels:

http://bawlingbabies.blogspot.com/2006/07/comfort-babies-rather-than-let-them.html

[snowboarder]

Oh no it's fine...!

I can't let him cry...it does my head in...I can let him chat and grumble but only let him cry if in pram or car seat. As you may be noting he's not easy..modes of transport that babies traditionally find soporific don't fool him.

[Fuschia]

snowboarder Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

As you may be noting he's

> not easy..modes of transport that babies

> traditionally find soporific don't fool him.

My first one was the same...the good thing is, he used all the extra awake time to learn... talked early, learnt to read early, is very clever (but oh so wearing!)

[sb]

.

[The Nappy Lady]

Hugs Snowboarder....I'm at work today otherwise I'd come and help so you could get your head down for an hour...is your other half around at the weekend?

When Z sleeps today can you have a lie down with him? Do try to if you can, regardless of what jobs you have 'on the list'.

Not sure if you recall, but I had a dreadful time with Baby C at around the 4 month mark, much as you are doing now, I was up and down with her in the night like a yoyo, and in the end went back to co-sleeping with her in the spare double bed in her room so DH could get a good nights sleep and I was less disturbed having her next to me, so could just keep patting her, or sticking her back on the breast.

It does seem to be quite common for them to go through patches of very disrupted sleep around this age, and I remember someone saying it is also linked to key development stages when they are trying to master a new skill. I think it is also linked to them getting through the newborn stage, needing less sleep in total over 24 hours, but not yet being mobile, so not tiring themselves out physically etc. I think it is one of the hardest phases.

I wish I had a magic answer for you....all I can say is this phase too will pass and you will look back in a couple of years and the entire 1st year will seem like a blur....in the meantime keep hanging on, and rest whenever you can, as much as you can. Do whatever you need to do to survive, and if that means co-sleeping, feeding to sleep etc. so be it. Equally don't be afraid to try new stuff.

For the daytime naps, can you see clearly when he is tired (eye rubbing etc)? Do you generally put him down in his cot rather than out in buggy (I find C sleeps much better and longer in her cot)? If you have a CD player in his room try having a restful CD (you can get specific baby lullaby CD's if need be) that you put on every time it is time for a nap...he will soon learn to associate the music with sleep - we've done that with both girls and it now calms C the minute I put the music on.

Do you have a baby moniter in his bedroom? Personally I'd say that if you're not resting with him, put him in his cot for his nap and go off and do whatever you need to do, and DON'T have the moniter on. It may be he is waking and you are going to him right away, when if left for a few minutes he would settle himself back down. Baby C does this fairly often and if I'm near by I will hear it (whilst ironing etc.) and before I go to her she's asleep again..... if I'd had the baby moniter I'm sure I'd have been in there like a shot and the nap would have been over. If he is really away, crying or 'shouting' for you of course you must go to him, but otherwise they do sometimes re-settle.

At 9 months C now tends to do a short morning nap (depending how early she's got up), then a big lunchtime sleep - 1 to 2 hours, then awake from about 2pm to 7.30pm. After my post the other week, as I predicted she got a cold and we had a few nights of her getting me up again, and some early starts - 5am was the worst...yuk, but now seem to be more or less back on track, was a 6am start today though which isn't morning in my opinion!

I do hope things improve soon....

Molly

x

[Fuschia]

The Nappy Lady Wrote:

I remember someone saying it is also

> linked to key development stages when they are

> trying to master a new skill.

http://moxie.blogs.com/askmoxie/2006/02/qa_what_are_sle.html

[charlottep]

Snowboarder - I remember crying over my dinner many times, just in anticipation of the disturbed nights sleep that I knew lay ahead of me! it is bloody hard work, but it will get better quicker than you think (my sister used to tell me that all the time which made me want to thump her, but she was right). To echo some of what's already been said, i think the following really helped me:

1. Good daytime nap routine, which is easier to establish, in my experience, when they're around 3/4 months old (my son had 45 mins in the morning, 1 hour after lunch and another 45 mins in the evening, once weaning was established, he slept for 2 hours after lunch and dropped the afternoon snooze). Good sleeping in the day definitely helps at night.

2. Strong sleep associations - I encouraged my son to use his muslin as a comfort blanket from about 3 months old - he also uses a dummy (not everyone's cup of tea i know), but just for naps. Now, where ever we are, i can hand him his dummy and muslin cloth and he knows it's time to sleep, either at nap time or bed time. A good bed time routine - with bath, story, gentle music also works wonders.

3. Blackout blind - this has made such a difference to my son - he used to wake up regularly at 5:30am, with the blackout blind he'll snooze through until 7/7:30.

4. We moved our son out of our room when he was about 4 months old (I know that's sooner than recommended, but I kept a monitor on my bedside table, even though he wasn't far away) and I think this also helped ensure he wasn't disturbed by us.

I appreciate that the napping routine and sleep associations aren't easy to establish, I just found that by being consistent in the run up to nap time and bed time, it finally clicked with my son (probably took a couple of months in total).

Good luck,

C

[Fuschia]

Son no 1 was an awful napper and frequent night waker... but now, at 6 yo, he has bullet proof sleep. Even if the alarm goes off, he doesn't stir, never gets up before 7 and can be carried from room to room in his sleep. He slept with me and bf on demand till he was 2+ then MrF took him at night for a while and broke the association between bf and sleep... he did cry and fuss while DP soothed him, but he was cross rather than distressed... once that was sorted, he never looked back.

He does sometimes get in and out of bed 100 times wanting a drink, a wee, etc, but all children do that.

So we had 2 years of constant waking... then ever since he has been great. I can live with that. It's not endless. As they grow up, children develop adult sleep patterns anyway, and drop the short sleep cycles and frequent waking.

[ratty]

We moved our son out of our room when he was 4 weeks old because we were all waking each other up. No harm in that, we had a video monitor on him which worked great for us. The key to sleep imo is routine, routine, routine.

[snowboarder]

Thank you all....3 half hour naps today - that's not enough is it? Bedtime now so we'll see...

Off to stay with the in laws next week - at least might be able to pack him off with granny for an hour or two, but suspect any nap schedule we have will be disrupted! Nap routine onset with a vengeance when we're back.

My mother says he needs solids...but he's not overly hungry in the day so I'm not sure..

Could be teething I suppose - there's a lot of dribbling going on..and sucking of fingers (making himself gag!)

Onwards..tonight is new and potentially totally different night! (please, baby, please)

xx

[snowboarder]

The Nappy Lady Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hugs Snowboarder....I'm at work today otherwise

> I'd come and help so you could get your head down

> for an hour...is your other half around at the

> weekend?

>

thank you:-) - but you have way more on your plate than me!!

Not looking good. Since going to sleep at 7 has already woken once. ohhhh..