Labour Leadership

[Blah Blah]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/in-what-world-is-corbyn-radical-for-standing-against-more-killing-while-revenge-bombing-is-seen-as-a6737856.html

Worth a read.

[DaveR]

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2015/10/i-wanted-believe-jeremy-corbyn-i-cant-believe-seumas-milne

[Blah Blah]

That article is a bit of a rant. The crux of which seems to be the authors take on Ukraine vs Milne's view. I thought the Ukraine conflict had started with pro-Russian seperatists? I don't know a huge amount about it but that doesn't sound like 'an uprising by Ukrainians keen to improve their lives.' Similarly I've never read any of Milne's columns so don't know much there either.

It's not a well enough written article for me to take it seriously.

Something else that is doing the rounds though is this comment from Goring during the Nuremburg Trials.

?Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America nor, for that matter, in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. ... [V]oice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.?

Food for thought there too.

[ratty]

Quite rich coming from a party trying to starve its own citizens. Not sure how any Conservative party member or supporter can take the moral high ground after what is being done in their name.

DaveR Wrote:

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> Below a letter written to Corbyn by Tory MP and

> ex-soldier Tom Tugendhat - worth reproducing in

> full:

>

> "Dear Jeremy,

>

> I am writing today with regards to reported

> comments made by the Labour Party?s Director of

> Strategy and Communication, Seumas Milne. The Sun

> newspaper reported this morning that Mr Milne had

> dismissed well-founded and valid concerns about

> equipment shortages as a ?red herring?, instead

> suggesting that British soldiers themselves were

> to blame for dying in Afghanistan ?because they

> are occupiers in another Muslim country where

> they?re not wanted?.

>

> Not only are these remarks ignorant and

> ill-informed, they are deeply disrespectful to

> those who served in Afghanistan at the time and to

> the friends and families of those who lost their

> lives in the conflict. Furthermore, and perhaps

> most absurdly, they recognise the authority of the

> Taliban, violent extremists who murdered thousands

> across the country, as more valid than the lawful

> government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan,

> the UN recognised, democratically elected

> government of the Afghan people. More sadly

> still, it ignores the courage of our allies in the

> Afghan Armed Forces alongside whom we served and

> in support of whom too many died.

>

> This is not an isolated incident. Not only has Mr

> Milne suggested 9/11 was America?s fault and

> appeared to support armed resistance against

> British troops in Iraq, he is also on record

> claiming that the murder of Lee Rigby, an innocent

> man murdered on a London street, wasn?t ?terrorism

> in the normal sense? because Mr Rigby was a member

> of the Armed Forces. By extension, am I to

> understand that this means that Mr Milne believes

> that I and other former servicemen and women on

> both sides of the House are also valid targets

> because of our records of military service?

>

> You have spoken eloquently about wanting to see a

> ?kinder politics? and I welcome this. It would

> make our county a more inclusive democracy. This

> is your opportunity to lead by example. As the

> leader of the Labour Party and Her Majesty?s

> Opposition, I urge you to consider the implication

> of having people on your team whose views support

> violent extremists rather than democrats. Our

> history is littered with despots whom British

> soldiers, sailors and airmen have fought against

> to secure the liberties we enjoy today, it seems

> sad that such anti-democratic elements should find

> voice in one of our important national political

> parties. I know that many on all sides of the

> House wish it were not so.

>

> I hope you will take this opportunity to condemn

> Mr Milne?s remarks. To stay silent would be wrong

> and may be seen as endorsing the views of those

> who choose violence instead of political debate.

> Neither we, nor the Afghan servicemen I was proud

> to serve alongside, were occupiers. We were both

> doing what I know you would support ? serving the

> lawful wishes of the democratically elected

> governments of the countries we each served. To

> forget that would be an insult to the memories of

> our brave serviceman and women and to treat

> democracy as an inconvenience when it is, in

> truth, the sole legitimate source of power.

>

> I would appreciate a response at your earliest

> convenience indicating what steps you intend to

> take.

>

> Yours,

>

> Thomas Tugendhat MBE MP"

>

> Tugendhat served in Afghanistan with Dan Jarvis MP

> (Labour)

[Blah Blah]

Todays Daily Politics show is depressing. It starts with mad Ken (Livingstone's) poor apology for his disgraceful comment about an MPs mental health, followed by Dianne Abbot trying to find a way out of a picture of John McDonnell holding a letter he'd apparently signed for a left wing group, listing demands including the abolition of MI5.

How is the Labour party ever going to be elected under a group of people like that (none of whom I particularly like and never have, it has to be said)?

Yes the media are going overboard on Corbyn but with people like that to keep feeding them it's just too easy.

[red devil]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> How is the Labour party ever going to be elected

> under a group of people like that (none of whom I

> particularly like and never have, it has to be

> said)?

FFS, did it not occur to you that a vote for Corbyn was also a vote for his acolytes like Abbot and McDonnell too?...

[Blah Blah]

No it didn't to be honest. Dianne Abbot yes, but no-one foresaw John McDonnell. I also hoped that Tom Watson would create the balance.

The poorest are being hammered and no-one in opposition is fighting for them. Government cuts are reducing the resources for people like me to do our jobs. My vote switched when Harmen led the party to an abstention on the Welfare Reform Bill. The rot had set in long Before Corbyn's election.

And if they don't sort themselves out fast, I won't be voting Corbyn again when the inevitable leadership challenge comes.

[Otta]

I've never been a huge Ken fan, and his comments were out of order, but I believe quite strongly that more offence was claimed to have been taken than was actually taken.

[red devil]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> My vote switched when Harmen led the

> party to an abstention on the Welfare Reform Bill.

> The rot had set in long Before Corbyn's election.

For me the rot set in when Ed M became leader instead of David M, it's gone from bad to worse ever since. Still, it's encouraging to hear the sound of running water as Corbyn voters try to wash their hands of the whole sorry affair...

[Otta]

I was watching, and was impressed by, Andy Burnham on QT last night. Couldn't help thinking "why couldn't you have shown me some of this during the leadership race. I was desperate for him or one if them to show some quality.

Looking back, it's unbelievable how of guard the other candidates were when Corbynmania kicked in.

[apbremer]

I seem to recall that one of Corbyn's crazed fulminations was that the NHS should be free to anyone in the world who rocked up here??

[Loz]

Otta Wrote:

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> I was watching, and was impressed by, Andy Burnham on QT last night. Couldn't help thinking "why

> couldn't you have shown me some of this during the leadership race. I was desperate for him or one if

> them to show some quality.

Really? I thought both Burnham and the Tory woman were bickering twits. Max Hastings and the Le Monde lady made the most sense, and I was rather surprised to find myself agreeing a lot with Mehdi Hasan, who I normally think is a raving idiot.

[Otta]

I thought Burnham did well and that the tory woman made herself look very silly by repeatedly saying "but did you say this in a speech, yes or no", after Burnham had said what she wanted him to say about 5 times.

[????]

Mehdi Hassan call any non-believers "Kaffir cattle" last night?

[Otta]

I don't know much about him, so can't comment on anything other than last night, but I thought he spoke very well.

[Blah Blah]

I thought Burnham came accross well but agree on the point above about the bickering between him and the Tory woman. She didn't come accross well at all, especially on historical matters around the middle east, which probably helped.

I disagree a little on Ed Milliband being the start of the rot in Labour Red Devil. For many it would be the point at which Blair took us into a war with Bush, based on no reliable evidence and in defiance of the UN. Ed Milliband failed because there was no opposition for years after Gordon Brown lost that election. In addition, Ed Milliband has no presence (not that Cameron does much better on that either). Who knows if a David Milliband leadership would have been different? Ed Milliband had some good policies, some of which the Tories have actually adopted. But his lack of presence meant he couldn't break the Tory myth that Labour destroyed the economy.

Corbyn is symbolic of a need for a leader that takes the government on. He might not in himself be the right person, but he stood out from the rest and that is what those Tory lite Labour MPs need to understand. Who do they replace him with? I'm perfectly happy with my vote for Corbyn given what this government is doing and given the other options that were on offer. But he is out of his depth. I want to see a candidate that shares some of his principles, but is also a good leader. That is what the Labour party needs to find. The Tory majority is small. Labour should be able to make some ground given the impacts of Tory policies. But right now they are too busy with in fighting. They will still get my vote, but I want to see them in government, before the Tories completely destroy the NHS, welfare state and leave this country completely at the mercy of the free market.

[Jah Lush]

http://uk.businessinsider.com/jeremy-corbyn-poll-numbers-v-ed-miliband-2015-11

[Blah Blah]

Right away there's a glaring inacuracy in that article. Ken Livingstone wasn't appointed by Corbyn himself, but by the NEC.

I think we should all be sceptical of polls after the last election, where the Tories and Labour were neck and neck according to the polls. But just like the election Major won (where polls put Labour ahead), the Tories do better than expected in General Elections and Labour slightly worse. Even if we accept those polls as a true reflection, it still puts Labour behind the Tories, and at a time when we are seeing the most draconian cuts for a long time. Those cuts are going to get far worse after the spending review on Tuesday as well, but they are not cuts that hit the typical Tory voter.

[????]

Sorry, I've been trying to avoid this thread as it's too cruel. But McDonnell Quoting from Mao's Little Red Book in his response to the Spending Review is Spartist Optimism beyond satire

[EDOldie]

First to admit I am no Labour supporter but Corbyn started out at 500/1 for the leadership and I think could win the next general election. He's perceived as caring and an underdog if a little naive sometimes, and I think seen by many people, particularly younger people, as radically different to the general middle to middle right ground that successive politicians have all sought to occupy. He's quite cool whereas Cameron et al are distinctly not. Don't forget the Tories have a very small majority, 12 seats and there were 21 by-elections in the last parliament. 6 of those were due to the death of the MP. With the reselection plans he could create a much more left wing Labour party and really change the face of politics in the UK. No one should underestimate him I think.

[Loz]

EDOldie Wrote:

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> With the reselection plans he could create a much more left wing Labour party and really change the face of

> politics in the UK. No one should underestimate him I think.

He could indeed change the face of politics in the UK - it's been many decades since the Labour party has not been either in government or the main opposition!

With Labour heading left, Osborne is making a grab for the centre ground, home of the swinging voter. Labour has little to no chance of recovering the lost Scottish vote in the next election or two, UKIP are nicking a big percentage of their working class vote and the Greens have the sandal-and-socks-wearing brigade in hand. All that's left is the urban leftie and the students and even they have doubts.

Reselecting MPs will be suicidal as far as the next election is concerned, as you can bet that most of those deselected MPs will still stand, probably as independents, and so fracturing the vote, which is deadly in a FPTP system.

But you are correct in saying he seems very nice, though he is rather out of his depth at the moment. But his biggest problem seems to be that he surrounds himself with complete dross, as McDonnell showed today. I'd love him as my MP, but shudder to think of him as a PM.

[????]

Would be some mould breaker given PM's traditionally have to be trusted on:

- economy

- security

- be percieved as competent

- look like PM material

- be in charge of a united party

It's a cult, although all over Social Media. In some polls Labour are just about holding up but The Com Res one in the Mirror at the Weekend had the Tories 12 points ahead and even leading in the North FFS.

Parking ideology, The issue that Corbyn isn't competent, which he's not, hasn't really got through to the electorate either yet.

5 years is a while but I think it will take a real economic meltdown (not entirely unfeasible) or some other major catastophe to get him in.

[EDOldie]

Good points Loz and ???? but there are a lot of people who don't vote or Greens who might vote for a more left wing Labour where they have no chance in their current seat (which is almost all under this silly electoral system we have). It's the rebel appeal that won him the leadership and if that translates into a national vote, well. I agree I think it's very unlikely but I thought that about the leadership campaign.

[Otta]

???? Wrote:

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> Sorry, I've been trying to avoid this thread as

> it's too cruel. But McDonnell Quoting from Mao's

> Little Red Book in his response to the Spending

> Review is Spartist Optimism beyond satire

Yeah because he was being totally serious.

???? Wrote:

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> - look like PM material

Whilst I know this actually matters for some, it depresses me more than most things.

[Blah Blah]

I thought the Mao book was hilarious personally :D

There are many things to come before the next General Election. London Mayor and local elections (which will tell us if opinion polls are any more credible than they weren't in the General Election). There's the Europe Referendum, a traditional Tory bust up. And eyes are on the Chinese economy. If it crashes, that could be just the disaster to elevate Corbyn and McDonell. That is of course, if Corbyn can hang on beyond 18 months.