Housing immigrants and queue jumping

[Keef]

Oi, that was fair price for what you wanted, and I serviced you thoroughly! Ooer mrs!

[Tony.London Suburbs]

mockney piers Wrote:

I once knew an English bloke who charged obnoxious rates for shoddy services.

Well your "tongue-in-cheek" response is exactly what I'm alluding to.

Surely Huguenot is not basing his opinion on "hearsay" or "conjecture" or "anecdotal". as, along with others, he refutes such "evidence".

So I'll be fascinated to see what reports/stats he comes up with to support his sweeping statement.

I know he will not be hypocrital and have double standards and accuse someone of basing their view on the above and do exactly the same thing himself!!

[Mark]

I had an English plumber on my property who was obnoxious, mouthy, shoddy and charged over the odds. I have also had a Polish builder who did some plumbing work (partly to mend the shoddy English job) who was brilliant; came in, did the work and left me feeling pleased with his work.

ps I know it's only anecdotal and a sweeping generalisation of the English vs Polish plumbers debate but for some that counts as evidence because it's not theory. I've also had excellent British plasterers/decorators/electricians etc, well I think they were British because they spoke English and were white.

[Jeremy]

There are loads of bad British plumbers/builders/etc who do a crap job and try to rip you off. We have all witnessed it.

The Polish tradesmen had an excellent reputation when they first starting working over here, however I'm not sure that reputation is still relevant. There are a few dodgy ones around looking to cash in on that reputation. But I think a lot of Poles are heading back because of the weak pound.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Mark Wrote:

I had an English plumber on my property who was obnoxious, mouthy, shoddy and charged over the odds. I have also had a Polish builder who did some plumbing work (partly to mend the shoddy English job) who was brilliant; came in, did the

work and left me feeling pleased with his work. ps I know it's only anecdotal and a sweeping generalisation of the English vs Polish plumbers debate but for some that counts as evidence because it's not theory. I've also had excellent British plasterers/decorators/electricians etc, well I think they were British because they spoke English and were white.

Sorry Mark but thats something I have learned after my 55 years after joining this Site.

Even if you ask 500 people about "someone" or "something" and they all, within reason, say the same thing, positive or negative, it is "meaningless" unless you have either:

1/ Met every single person alive in a particular "category" or

2/ Got Government Stats/Reports to back up ones "assumptions" even though these "assumptions" are based on everyone saying, virtually, the same thing...

Meanwhile in the "Real" World outside of EDFSpace...

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Jeremy Wrote:

The Polish tradesmen had an excellent reputation..

"Reputation" is often gained, certainly in the Business World by "word-of-mouth".

Yet david carnell, to name just one EDF luminary, does not accept "anecdotal" evidence per se.

He has stated that repeatedly and yet thats EXACTLY how many people ( individually or collectively ) have prospered and expanded through "personal recommedation" i.e. they have a goodreputation in a certain area.

So if david is correct and most other people are wrong then I'm sorry but we simply can NOT accept the merit a group of people because some in their group have an "excellent reputation"....

[Keef]

At the end of the day, a load of Polish workers came over here, and were willing to work bloody hard, for shite pay. Lots of honest British tradesmen found it very tough to compete, because their workers wouldn't work for that little.

I can understand these British tradesmen being a bit p!ssed off. I wonder if the reason things have changed a bit is, not only due to the declining pound (although I am certain that has something to do with it), but also because the Polish workers who are still here, are actually now saying "hang on a bloody minute, why am I working like a slave for a couple of quid an hour?".

There was this lovely guy who would come in to the CPT a year or two back, on his pay day, he'd be in there knocking back shots of vodka with us, and he was a genuinely nice bloke. He once told me how much he'd been paid for a fortnights work, and although I can't remember the exact figure now, I remember my jaw dropping and asking him why the hell he'd work for so little!

The people that should be getting the brunt of the anger of the British tradesmen are not the Polish, but rather the people who are exploiting the Polish by paying peanuts for work to be done. They should be ashamed!

[Huguenot]

TLS, it's not true that demand for plumbers is the same year in year out - the massive growth in house prices 2000 to 2008 resulted in a huge increase in demand for building and renovation services.

I renovated two derelict houses in ED across the period and received nothing but over-priced shoddy work from foul mouthed obnoxious English plumbers (save for ED's own Peter Bennison who did excellent work but was never available). The contribution from the Polish guys on the other hand was exceptional and fairly priced.

Naturally I wasn't looking to debate plumbers, I was merely illustrating that this mobile labour force didn't come to England to milk the benefits system in the style of some of our local correspondents. They came to provide a service, and left when the market stopped being as attractive.

This observation is borne out statistically, as it has been proven that within the first five years of moving to the UK, immigrants have a lower take up rate of social housing, and after five years they have the same take up rate of social housing as indigents.

I believe other studies should be done, notably identifying whether those that complain about immigration based on prejudice are also disproportionately represented amongst the sponging classes.

[SeanMacGabhann]

But if this was true, would I not be able to ring up pa british tradesman and have him around toute suite? Instead I still get told, by pretty much everyone I ring, that they are booked up and can't come around until a week Tuesday (or whatever)

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Huguenot Wrote:

I believe other studies should be done, notably identifying whether those that complain about immigration based on prejudice are also disproportionately represented amongst the sponging classes.

I will tell you the people who complain about immigration mostly.

The "people" who are adversely affected by the consequences in their Community, perceived or otherwise.

I'm sure many Brits who live in "hideously White" East Dulwich will not complain one jot but conversely enjoy the "rich tapestrt" that seeing people from other Cultures brings to them. They may not know hardly any immigrants ( legal or otherwise).They may not, "personally", know many Asylum Seekers but they approove of the fact they are here as it does NOT impinge on their everyday existence.

Now THIS is what happened to a friend of mine and his 80 year old Mum when she fell over 3 weeks ago and went to The London ( or City ? Hospital )in East London:-

Hardly any other patient in "A and E" that night spoke English, she said and as a consequence the delay to be seen, naturally, took much longer, accordingly. Thats a fact of life even if some don't like the concept.

Then a Somalian Gang and a Jamaican Gang ( my friends description ) fought a Mini-Riot in the Department.

She took 6 hours to be seen as a result of all this.

I'll think you will her view is, ever-so-slightly, dissimilar to yours but then she is on "the receiving end" and you and most others here, are not Hugo.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Extraordinary Double Standards on here.

When people give anecdotal "evidence" repeatedly which can build a negative image of someone or a group of people it is egarded as wrong.

Yet it seems perfectly acceptable and commonplace for anecdotal "evidence" to be used, positively, when supporting a claim i.r.o someone or certain groups of people.

Are personal anecdots valid or not?

To retain a semblance of credibility there has to be some consistency here.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Hugo so your answer to my 2 questions :-:

1/What evidence do you have that the Polish workers, in general, did a a better job than the Guys that they substituted from those same jobs?

2/Also what evidence do you have that Guys doing those same Plumbing jobs previously, "charged obnoxious rates for shoddy services "

....is based on a little personal "evidence" as follows ??

I renovated two derelict houses in ED across the period and received nothing but over-priced shoddy work from foul mouthed obnoxious English plumbers> (save for ED's own Peter Bennison who did excellent work but was never available). The

contribution from the Polish guys on the other hand was exceptional and fairly priced.

Your other comments did not relate to my 2 questions so I have only commented on that.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

As Brucie would say "Marvellous, Dear-- that answer was sooo much better than the answers you gave last week "

It is, indeed, a "Good Game" my luvs...:))

[Keef]

Talking to yourself is the first sign of madness Tony.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Keef Wrote:

Talking to yourself is the first sign of madness Tony.

Well when the pertinent questions start a deafening silence ensues around The EDF Keef....:))

[red devil]

Maybe we should set up a rota...

[Jeremy]

I actually disagree that the polish tradesmen situation is a simple case of supply and demand. I would suggest most of them came here not because they couldn't get work in Poland, but because they could get paid a lot more in the UK - and have an opportunity to run their own business to boot. Most of them probably returned home because of the weak pound. Good builders with strong reputations will rarely be short of work (in my opinion).

[Keef]

Well when the pertinent questions start a deafening silence ensues around The EDF Keef....

Is 18 minutes (time between your 1st and 4th consecutive, unanswered post) a "deafening silence"? Mick started his bbq thread last night, to no reply, and now it's absolutely flying!

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Keef Wrote:

Is 18 minutes (time between your 1st and 4th consecutive, unanswered post) a "deafening silence"? Mick started his bbq thread last night, to no reply, and now it's absolutely flying!

I saw that thread and laughed as I, wrongly, thought that it had no chance of taking off in "Right-On" East Dulwich where it can not be acknowledged that one Gender or one Group of people is superior or inferior to another Gender or Group of people about any individual thing.

The EDF "Mantra" is that, generally, we are "all the same" about everything, which is lovely..

The truth is that both genders have their strengths and weaknesses, their intellectuals and idiots, with every category of person, in-between, but "differences" are rarely, acknowledged on here, for fear of causing offence or being "jumped-on" by The EDF Massif, innit...innit?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Jeremy Wrote:

I actually disagree that the polish tradesmen situation is a simple case of supply and demand. I would suggest most of them came here not because they couldn't get work in Poland, but because they could get paid a lot more in the UK - and have an

> opportunity to run their own business to boot. Most of them probably returned home because of the weak pound. Good builders with strong reputations will rarely be short of work (in my opinion).

No! No! No! Its because they had heard depressing reports of "foul mouthed obnoxious English plumbers" and wanted to demonstrate that not all Plumbers fall into that category.

They were altruistic enough to trek across Europe, accept poor wages and work with commendable zest and vigour to disproove that commonly held view about Plumbers ( apart from ED's own Peter Bennison who they had heard did excellent work ).

They only returned when the work dried up. It had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the "weak pound" or the decrease in the differential between the wages that Poland were now paying for a Plumber and what they could earn in this Country.

How cynical of you Jeremy, I'm disappointed...:-S

[red devil]

Ok, it must be my turn...

Tony, the story you regaled about the A&E fisticuffs could apply to any A&E department on a Fri/Sat night, regardless of the ethnicity of the perpetrators, some people will always use events like this to justify their already held prejudiced views...

Your turn next Keef...

[Tony.London Suburbs]

red devil Wrote:

Tony, the story you regaled about the A&E fisticuffs could apply to any A&E department on a Fri/Sat night, regardless of the ethnicity of the perpetrators, some people will always use events like this to justify their already held prejudiced> views...

I was referring to the ADDITIONAL delay RD, much of which was caused by nearly every other patient not speaking English.

This MUST cause additional delays to all those waiting. This would not be a problem in Sheen, Truro or dare I say, East Dulwich...

[Mark]

Can I have a go...

Would I be correct to say, TLS is implying that if those non-English speaking people were not in the hospital then his friend's mum would have been seen quicker, therefore it would be better if there were no non-English speaking people in hospitals getting in the way of English speaking people.

?

Do his multitude of ethnically diverse friends' mums speak English? Did this friend's mum speak English? Has he offered a solution to this problem?

[louisiana]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Jeremy Wrote:

> I actually disagree that the polish tradesmen

> situation is a simple case of supply and demand. I

> would suggest most of them came here not because

> they couldn't get work in Poland, but because they

> could get paid a lot more in the UK - and have an

> > opportunity to run their own business to boot.

> Most of them probably returned home because of the

> weak pound. Good builders with strong reputations

> will rarely be short of work (in my opinion).

>

>

> No! No! No! Its because they had heard depressing

> reports of "foul mouthed obnoxious English

> plumbers" and wanted to demonstrate that not all

> Plumbers fall into that category.

>

> They were altruistic enough to trek across Europe,

> accept poor wages and work with commendable zest

> and vigour to disproove that commonly held view

> about Plumbers ( apart from ED's own Peter

> Bennison who they had heard did excellent work ).

>

> They only returned when the work dried up. It had

> NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the "weak pound" or

> the decrease in the differential between the wages

> that Poland were now paying for a Plumber and what

> they could earn in this Country.

>

> How cynical of you Jeremy, I'm disappointed...:-S

TLS, I have held myself back since you started posting on this forum, but I can do so no longer.

In English, the word 'plumber' does not include an initial capital. Neither do the words 'group' or 'gender'.

The fact is, we do not live in Germany. We do not, consequently, sprinkle initial capitals across our texts like confetti, or sugar on our morning cereal, or indeed salt on the so-called dinner of our vegan neighbour.

Thank goodness.

If you are to continue propounding your views - with such vigour - on the mores and politics of our benighted country, I would really appreciate it if you were to write English in the manner commonly accepted, rather than in a manner that might be proposed by Germans. (cf Fowler et al.)

[bignumber5]

Hardly any other patient in "A and E" that night spoke English, she said and as a consequence the delay to be seen, naturally, took much longer... This MUST cause additional delays to all those waiting. This would not be a problem in Sheen, Truro or dare I say, East Dulwich...

Our local A&E is King's, you do know that don't you?!