Housing immigrants and queue jumping

[Keef]

But Tony, I thought we'd made it clear that that doesn't really happen, at least not to he degree you seem to think it does. Besides, if you'd seen some of the places I've seen, where asylum seekers have been housed, you wouldn't be so quick to want to take their place!

[Chick]

> My problem and the problem of countless others who

> have been disadvantaged by the Housing System is

> "Asylum Seekers" automatically joining the small

> proportion existing applicants on the Housing List

> at the top of the queue, thus keeping everyone

> else who would like Social Housing where they are

> for far longer than they would have been or

> permanently in some areas.

This is just rubbish. It was your girlfriend Thatcher who wrecked social housing in the eighties, the new Tories have done nothing to improve things.

[cdonline]

Yay!!!

I'm moving, got myself a Council flat and all. Just down the road from Westminster Bridge. Feel like I've one the lottery. Who'd have guessed. After all this time and me being a single white male.

Only needed to get a life threatening illness and wait 6 years. Sorted.

Shame that the SE1 forum is pants.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Chick Wrote:

This is just rubbish. It was your girlfriend Thatcher who wrecked social housing in the eighties, the new Tories have done nothing to improve things.

The two points are not mutually exclusive.

Dear Margeret did lower the Housing stock enormously. The successive Governments, as you say, have done nothing since.

However that doesn't in any way change the fact that while nearly 100% of Asylum Seekers are"Homeless" and go straight to the highest category of priority only a small proportion of Guys already on the list are already in the highest category i.e Homeless so everyone else is pushed further down, accordingly.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Keef Wrote:

But Tony, I thought we'd made it clear that that doesn't really happen, at least not to he degree you seem to think it does. Besides, if you'd seen some of the places I've seen, where asylum seekers have been housed, you wouldn't be so quick to want to take their place!

Its good to speak to someone who has "practical" experience of the situation rather than the endless stream of "thereorists" here who are not inconvenienced or involved in any way Keef.

That study only involved the last 5 years and the point, also, is that most Asylum Seekers gain Housing by way of Social Services finding them a place in the Private Sector. It did really happen for the 35/40 years before this study Keef.

Of course, as you know, some of the places are dreadful. I've seen some too and would not want to live there, for sure.

[Maurice]

Besides, if you'd seen some of the places I've seen, where asylum seekers have been housed, you wouldn't be so quick to want to take their place!

You walked right into that one dear boy.

[Keef]

most Asylum Seekers gain Housing by way of Social Services

Just to clarify, social services will fund it whilst the person is "destitute plus", and has not yet been granted leave to remain, thus has no access to public funds (you may argue that social services is public funds, but that is for another time). Once granted leave to remain, people will be expected to seek work, or sign on, and claim housing benefit.

I'm not sure "most" asylum seekers are in this boat (no pun intended), as lots and lots of them will be staying with family or friends, in over crowded flats.

Basically Tony, I wanted to defend you a bit in my first post, as I felt that people were labelling you as a biggot, without really reading your points. However, you do seem to just bash on and on and on with the same points, and pick very specific bits of other people's posts to suite your argument, often out of context from that in which they were written.

I agree strongly that to raise questions about immigration and asylum, DOES NOT make one a racist BNP/UKIP voting c**t. These things sometimes need discussing, and a lot of people need to worry less about appearing "right on", and saying the right things.

However, there are times when you do start to wonder if a person just plain doesn't want other people here.

[david_carnell]

Of course asylum seekers (as opposed to economic migrants) aren't allowed to work by law and thus have no other means of supporting themselves other than to rely on the state.

Perhaps if we allowed these people, many of whom are highly skilled professionals, to support themselves it may begin to alleviate the shortage of housing, perceived or otherwise.

In relation to other inquiries as to why migrants pick the UK rather than other EU countries that they may have passed through on their journeys I would proffer some of the following:

The UK is still one of Europe's most economically successful countries, despite the recent downturn

We have an existing variety of disapara (sp?) that other members would look to become part of. For e.g. New Malden has Europe' largest Korean population. It would seem logical if you were Korean looking for a new home in Europe to head to the UK rather than the first EU country you reached (which would be Poland if my geography is correct).

The UK has a deserved reputation, and one I am proud of, as a tolerant nation that has little racism - an attractive proposition for non-white migrants who may have come from "difficult" backgrounds.

And one last point. TLS, you asked how "YOU" would feel (your caps btw) if one of "THEM" continually got promoted at work despite your own longevity of tenure. I'm afraid the comparison doesn't hold water. Housing is assigned on basis of need on a points based system. Promotion at work is neither based on need nor on permanence but rather on skill and potential. Does that answer one of your many questions?

[Keef]

n relation to other inquiries as to why migrants pick the UK rather than other EU countries that they may have passed through on their journeys I would proffer some of the following:

The UK is still one of Europe's most economically successful countries, despite the recent downturn

We have an existing variety of disapara (sp?) that other members would look to become part of. For e.g. New Malden has Europe' largest Korean population. It would seem logical if you were Korean looking for a new home in Europe to head to the UK rather than the first EU country you reached (which would be Poland if my geography is correct).

The UK has a deserved reputation, and one I am proud of, as a tolerant nation that has little racism - an attractive proposition for non-white migrants who may have come from "difficult" backgrounds.

All correct, but lets be honest here, some people probably come because they get the most benefits here.

[jimmy two times]

My beef is not with asylum seekers or immigrants getting housed, but people who are cearly antisocial getting housed by the council. My old mum and dad live in a council flat and their neighbours on one side are a lovely South American family and on the other a lovely Polish family. Prior to these families moving in my parent's neighbours were a drunk white English guy who's mate assualted my 70 year old dad and a noisy English couple who used to throw loud parties every weekend. In the end both sets of neighbours were evicted. What gets me is that they appear to both have been rehoused by another council. Why?

[Jeremy]

I think Keef is right, our government does have a reputation of being more lenient than others.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8129812.stm

"Britain has a good government" he said, "Britain will help me to get a better life."

[DaveR]

DC, at the risk of a pedantry warning, I think "diaspora" is the word; not sure of the plural - "diasporae"?

"All correct, but lets be honest here, some people probably come because they get the most benefits here." I think this is a very small minority - many more come because of the ready availability of work compared to the (still) far more regulated and restrictive labour markets in other European countries.

[david_carnell]

Keef - do they get the most benefits here? I would question that tbh. I'm going to dig around and see whether that widely held assumption is in fact accurate.

I'll try and report back in Huguenot time.

[Keef]

I have no figures to be honest, and you may find that benefits are higher in another country, but perhaps rather than "better benefits", it's a case of easier to get benefits...

I know that lots of asylum seekers tried to come here from Holland because they felt they could get more here.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

david_carnell Wrote:

And one last point. TLS, you asked how "YOU" would feel (your caps btw) if one of "THEM" continually got promoted at work despite your own longevity of tenure. I'm afraid the comparison doesn't hold water. Housing is assigned on basis of need on a points based system. Promotion at work is neither based on need nor on permanence but rather on skill and potential. Does that answer one of your many questions?

Yes david though I'm sure we could think of a similar situation that is based on being nearer the front of a queue and others continually, over a long period of time, suddenly appearring and being placed before you.

[red devil]

What, like a night club when the VIP's flounce right past everyone - who do they think they are?!..

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Basically Tony, I wanted to defend you a bit in my first post, as I felt that people were labelling you as a biggot, without really reading your points. However, you do seem to just bash on and on and on with the same points, and pick very

specific bits of other people's posts to suite your argument, often out of context from that in

which they were written. I agree strongly that to raise questions about immigration and asylum, DOES NOT make one a racist

BNP/UKIP voting c**t. These things sometimes need discussing, and a lot of people need to worry less about appearing "right on", and saying the right things. However, there are times when you do start to wonder if a person just plain doesn't want other people here.

Keef this is what I wrote to you:

"All abuses are wrong and The Council place should be forfeited and not be passed down the Generations.

Many people living in The Suburbs now have done so on the back of profiting from the sale of their Council place.

So I agree there have been many "White/British" abuses, as well"....

To which Santerme replied to me:

It is interesting that you think that it is White/British abuse to have profited from the purchase and sale of a Council property.

Why is that abuse of the system?

I know many non caucasians who benefitted equally from it.

Sometimes you just cannae win..lol

[SeanMacGabhann]

Ok, back on dry land now so, some figures on migration

This is worldwide rather than EU based but still

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_net_mig_rat-immigration-net-migration-rate

plenty of other European countries above UK there

That's net migration to be fair, so immigrants as a percentage of a population

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_imm_pop_imm_as_per_of_sta_pop-immigrant-population-immigrants-percentage-state

or Asylum seekers per capita, shows Uk scraping into the top 10

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_asy_see_percap-immigration-asylum-seekers-per-capita

[Jeremy]

Some surprising stats in there (for some of us, anyway).

However, I think it is noteworthy that the UK is #1 in terms of absolute numbers of asylum seekers

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/uk-united-kingdom/imm-immigration

This indicates that compared with other countries of similar population and economic standing (particularly Italy, France, Spain) we're doing more to accomodate them.

But we didn't need statistics to prove this - we already know from the numbers of refugees trying to get across from Calais, that the UK is seen as a more appealling prospect.

[SeanMacGabhann]

If other countries have been receiving proportionally more refugees it's a reasonable assumption to make that they will have made it progressively harder to enter those countries, and that the UK may be just catching up on that score

But given that people were suggesting other countries weren't doing their bit....

[david_carnell]

Sorry for the late reply but seemingly, thanks to this same site, we are not nearly as kindly with benefits as is made out.

Unemployment benefit as a % of GDP

[Keef]

I think a lot of countries have done their bit, but per capita figures (from 2001) don't really tell a full story.

I'd also like to see the "asylum seekers acceptance rates" since 1999. I don't know for sure, but I'd hazard a guess that it would have gone up from the 43% of the 90s.

[Keef]

The unemployment benefit figures are also interesting, but again, I'm not totally sure what they are telling us, and again, they're not exactly recent.

[Jeremy]

The point I'm making is... why should some countries in the EU make it harder for asylum seekers than others?

To me this seems like exactly the sort of thing the EU should intervene in... spread the costs of providing asylum fairly, make sure that asylum seekers are cared for adequately wherever they go, etc.

Or perhaps the EU are more interesting in governing fruit and vegetable shapes and enforcing the metric system.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I believe the EU laws on fruit size and shape are largely urban myth as well Jeremy

Keef - fair points on data age. The first link I posted was for 2008. I assumed thereafter the rest was as recent but I am as interested as you in the latest info

As for why would some countries make it harder than others - not all the countries are in the EU for starters are they?

And even moving together as an "EU", each country still has it's emotive hotspots where governments have to be seen to "showing" the EU that they are listening to their people. I dunno... My suggestion that legislation was more "advanced" in other countries was speculation - perhaps they are as open as ever and refugees have discovered museli and yoghurt does not a breakfast make so come here instead. Or maybe keef's point that they know the benefits are easier to obtain or are better in some way hold sway... they still go through a lot to get them... not sure if I would have as much gumption