Housing immigrants and queue jumping

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Mark Wrote:

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

There have been a lot changes for the better in 40 years, from human rights to medicines.

Agreed. This includes many people on here be able to use the Internet and communicate on an equal level with people representing (what for want of better words ) ordinary working people.

I suspect many on here only "communicate" with them when they are issuing instructions to them during the course of their work.

Doubt if there are too many "Working-Mans Clubs" in East Dulwich, and I would be astonished if 99,9% of people on here attended them.

But, in "theory" Guys you know much about them.:)

Having a dislike for immigrants now because of the "harm" that other immigrants did 40 years ago is where our opinions will have to differ.

Firstly any harm that immigrants may or may not have done 40 years ago would not impact on many on here who were not even around to suffer any "supposed" consequences.

Secondly you assume, wrongly, that I dislike "immigrants" per se. You are wrong.

What I do NOT like is the system which allows some "immifrants" having gaining priority over indigenous Brits over a 40 year period in a system where they had made no contributions, previously.

Quite a subtle difference I would have thought.

[Santerme]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> I'm not sure why you lot are engaging with a man

> who has plenty of previous 'debating' a single

> narrow point over 20 pages, mostly with himself,

> who produces made-up or tainted statistics, but

> counters other arguments only with anecdotal

> evidence.

>

> Plus the debate is missing the point. As Bob says,

> it's a safety net or it's a right for everyone.

> If the former is the case then anyone who can

> afford rental has no entitlement, if you can't the

> DSS will provide housing benefit until such time

> as housing becomes available, clearly also the

> experience for the vast majority of immigrants.

>

> If you feel it's a right then blame thatcher who

> sold the housing stock, which lets face it the

> occupiers were quick to snap up, didn't hear much

> 'no, this is social housing lets jot deplete the

> stock and exacerbate the waiting lists'. Blame all

> subsequent governments who have massively under

> invested in social housing and attempted to put

> sticking plasters over the situation.

> Don't blame the councils who can only firefight

> and don't blame the immigrants for goodness sake.

I think this pretty much nails it, MP.

I actually have a lot to thank Thatcher for as I benefitted hugely from the council house sell off.

I bought my grandparents house in Kennington when it had incresed five fold in value and sold it when it had done the same again over seven years.

There is a five year waiting list for a council house in Dorset and we have very few immigrants here I can assure you.

Much of the lack of social housing stock in the villages is caused by resistance from the residents to having it built, planning can be held up for years.

We eventually built five house on the edge of our village, after the main objection was overcome, which was there would be nowhere for the locals to walk their dogs if they were constructed.

We live in the middle of a green field, called Dorset, FFS!

You may gather I was not one of the objectors.

[Jeremy]

I really dislike the argument that "I've paid my taxes, I deserve a council house". That's not how it works... the tax you've paid isn't your money. It's not a piggy-bank you pay into and withdraw from when you need it. Public funds are there for the benefit of the society, and surely a family have a greater need than a single man in his 20s.

Personally I like the fact that our country is willing and able to provide asylum to refugees. However... you do have to question why so many refugees strive to get into the UK - many of whom will travel the whole width of Europe to get here. It seems as if other wealthy countries are not pulling their weight.

[Maurice]

Excellent point Santerme. When people blame Baroness Thatcher for 'selling off' council houses, they fail to realise that she sold them to people working hard to pull themselves upward. And that had they not been sold, they would still be occupied by those people (or their kin) and we'd have no more housing stock now.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

bignumber5 Wrote:

because 40 years ago the biggotted stance being championed by our 'burban colleague was, as he kindly reminds us, more commonplace. The logic of "it's ok for me to spout hateful nonsense because we all used to back in the day and it was ok then" seems to be the justification of choice, in the absence of anything more rational...

The "stance" was commonplace because indigenous people were being, SYSTEMATICALLY placed further and further down the Housing queue while others came in above them from abroad and WERE given priority hence the "resentment".

bignumber5 if in your work-place you were at the forefront for a position and you were continually overlooked as every time a similar position became available and was taken by someone from "outside" ( the equivalent here) and that process continued for decades would you not be resentful at the system?

Anyone who had a vested in gaining a Southwark Council place back in the day would tell you, VERY clearly, that this practice of pushing people already on the list further down that list was commonplace but then I suspect, HEAVILY, that you and your kin were NOT affected by this.

bignumber5 I asked you last night how old you are so that I can gage whether it makes sense that you called my comments "nonsense" .

My comments i.r.o. Housing queues are based on my knowledge over the last 40 years, what are yours based on?

[Maurice]

Why have you lived in Council housing for 40 years Tony? You once said your family owned five or so houses in Walworth. What happened?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

louisiana Wrote:

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> 55, going on 5.5

loiuisiana what a pleasure it is to "engage" with you.

Thus far, your only contribution is a petty, pathetic, small-minded insult to me.

Now have you been adversely affected in any way by the lack of Social Housing over, say, the last 40 years or so?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Maurice Wrote:

Why have you lived in Council housing for 40 years Tony? You once said your family owned five or so houses in Walworth. What happened?

Keep up Uncle Maurice.:)

My Aunt's mother owned 5 Terraced House around Walworth ( I'm told ) but were given a pittance for them when ( I assume) they were Compulsorily Purchased to build the enchanting "Aylesbury Estate" at the time the largest Housing complex in Europe.

My Family also lost their Council house but were given a Council Flat instead near East Lane Market ( we then transferred to another place overlooking East Lane itself ).

I haven't been back there since, well, yesterday, in fact!

From 1973 I trid to get on the list and so did many of my single friends ( mostly Male).

Year-in, Year-Out came the same old Council mantra that no places were available as thousands upon thousands of people came into the system above us.

Thats what I knew Maurice, however, we now have the farcical situation on EDF whereby a group of (in general) Middle-Class Guys who "mostly" were NOT around at the time and were NOT affected then or now in any adverse way are trying to pretend that this "priority" system did NOT occur because it has only occurred i.r.o. 2% of The Council accommodation stock over the last 5 years !!!

Utterly ridiculous.

I would love the average respondee on this thread to have a conversation with some of the Guys let down by the system over the last 40 years and tell them not to be so resentful at the system. I would they would leave with a proverbial "flea in their ear"..B)

In 1983 I was given some money to put down a deposit on my own place next to Danson Park, Welling.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Jeremy are you sure Britain is the only destination? Or even the main one... I'm on a mobile so can't get hold of the research but any time I have looked at European league tables Britain is mid-ranking in terms of numbers coming in

[Maurice]

Well that clears it right up Tony, thank you. So you've not had experience with housing qeues since 1983? Well done on getting on the property ladder. You do live a most wonderfully exciting life, dear boy.

[Brendan]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> I really dislike the argument that "I've paid my

> taxes, I deserve a council house". That's not how

> it works... the tax you've paid isn't your money.

> It's not a piggy-bank you pay into and withdraw

> from when you need it. Public funds are there for

> the benefit of the society, and surely a family

> have a greater need than a single man in his 20s.

I think this is where the distinction between income tax and national insurance comes in.

[Maurice]

Queues. One does apologise.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

mockney piers Wrote:

I'm not sure why you lot are engaging with a man....

Perhaps you could get off your high, "oh-so-superior" horse to tell me why:

1/ As Jeremy put it: "you do have to question why so many refugees strive to get into the UK - many of whom will travel the whole width of Europe to get here" ??

Why do these people by-pass so many Countries to get to Britain when most have no natural connection with this Nation, historically?

2/ If these Guys are "fleeing pesecution" from their original countries why is it, almost exclusively, single males we see trying to cross the border from France in nearly every case?

This means they are leaving their Women and children to survive in these persecuted lands?

What is your answer to these 2 questions please MP?

[red devil]

Tony, it's one thing being resentful against the system, but it's another being resentful against immigrants, which is what you come across as, despite your 'Jamaican ladyfriend'...

[DaveR]

I've paid my taxes for years, and this bloke who lives next to me, he's never worked, and the council gave him a car! Admittedly, he doesn't have any legs, but even so, it's just not fair is it?

[Jeremy]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> Jeremy are you sure Britain is the only

> destination? Or even the main one... I'm on a

> mobile so can't get hold of the research but any

> time I have looked at European league tables

> Britain is mid-ranking in terms of numbers coming

> in

It's an interesting point - I don't have the stats either. But it is a well known fact that there are large numbers of refugees around the Calais area, all trying to get across. Many pay to be smuggled across in trucks, and stowaways were common in the early days of the channel tunnel. Sangatte is gone, but many immigrants remain in makeshift camps - particularly the notorious "jungle". So why all the effort to get into an island nation, when they could surely reach almost anywhere else in Europe more easily? I expect because they believe they'll get a better life here, and the British government will do more to accomodate them.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Maurice Wrote:

Well that clears it right up Tony, thank you. So you've not had experience with housing qeues since 1983? Well done on getting on the property ladder. You do live a most wonderfully exciting life, dear boy.

Thanks Maurice.

Unlike the marvellous "theoretists" on here who seem to know diddly squat about the way the "system" has operated over the last 40 years, I have worked for Southwark Council and Lewisham Council and that includes spells in the early 1990's in The Housing Departments of both Councils.

When I took prospective Tenants to Deptford I had to refer to it as "North Lewisham" to make it appear more attractive.:))

Stories are legendary but Hackney Council were the undisputed Guv'nors of abusing The Housing System.

At one point they had to suspend the whole Senior strata of the Housing Department as "friends" of The Officers were jumping the queue on a regular basis but I doubt of the "theoretists" on here know anything about that.

Probably didn't feature in The Graniad ( Guardian ) though:))

p.s I've known many people who gave up on the system long ago through the 1980's/1990's Maurice.

Exciting life? Its been varied ever since I worked for The Law Courts in The Strand in 1971 thats for sure..

p.s I am available for your next Dinner Party and have excellent Table Manners and social skills...:)

[Jeremy]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> I expect because they believe they'll get a better life here, and the British government will do more to accomodate them.

I should emphasise... this is not a criticism of our own immigration policies, more of an assumption/deduction that other countries aren't doing their bit.

[Brendan]

Which countries would those be? The ones that should be taking people in, the ones that the people are coming from, the ones who are responsible for the predicaments that the countries people are "fleeing" from are in or those who are providnig them with aid?

[Keef]

Right, I am going to wade in now.

I think we should ship-in any foreigners who are willing to get off their fat, lazy arses and do some work in order to better their lives - and give them a nice council house to get them started as an incentive.

This would allow us to export homegrown feckless Brits who are unwilling to get off their fat, lazy arses, do some work and make something of themselves instead of sitting around demanding their right to council house (for life) and believing made-up drivel that just popped through the letterbox in a BNP leaflet simply because it suits them.

Basically I read this, and agreed with it, there are too many people out there who just believe they should have a right to live in a council house, and that is as far as they are willing to see, they won't even consider getting out there, working, and renting a private place. These people make me fecking angry if I am honest.

However, some of what Tony has said, has been quite true, and people are too quick to shoot him down and label him biggot.

I am not talking here about immigrants from within europe, but more asylum seekers, because that is what I know.

People who have come and claimed asylum DO NOT get bumped to the top of a queue because they are asylum seekers. However, as Tony quite rightly says, they will present themselves as homeless, and for this reason they are prioritised, just as any white british person would be if they presented themselves as homeless.

There is a term "Destitute Plus", whereby a person is destitute, plus they have another issue that makes them vulnerable, such as being homeless (are you staying with me here?). In these circumstances, a local authority has a legal obligation to support this person, and will usually house them. This will NOT be done by housing, but usually by a social services department who will find a private accomodation (because there is no council housing available), and then pay the rent. These people will then be given a "living" fund of around ?30 a week (from which they need to pay for electricity, gas, water, and food). It is not a great life.

Where there is a genuine (genuine, but not large) problem IMO, is when people come to Britain for a better deal than they may have gotten elsewhere, and it does happen. I once worked with a guy from Somalia, who had been blinded in war over there, and came here claiming asylum. Fair enough if you ask me, I have always said we should grant asylum to anyone who needs it! However, once he was here, and granted leave to remain, then housed in a social housing, a load of his cousins came over from Holland, where they had claimed, and been granted, asylum. They then managed to get housed, and signed on, and would tell me happily (as I was working with their cousin, they trusted me, and spoke honestly with me) that they were here for the benefits, as they couldn't get them in Holland.

Now as far as I am concerned, people who need asylum should get it. I cannot, however, support a person who is granted asylum and housed somewhere, but then decides they'd rather come here for a better deal. The above example was one case, but I saw this kind of thing quite a lot. It is this sort of thing which is highlighted by certain groups, in order to raise bad feeling towards immigrants. I can understand the bad feeling, but what people need to realise, is that the numbers are very small in the great scheme of tings.

I remember going to see a white person on a very very white council estate in Eltham, and hearing her rant about "all the immigrants". That estate was 85% white, and those from ethnic minorities quickly moved on because of the abuse they got. Yet she still moaned about all the immigrants taking all the housing!

Tony, and SteveT, I put another scenario to you. I know a white girl from Bermondsey, who has grown up in a council house. Her grand dad now lives alone having lost his wife a couple of years back, so she was telling me very proudly, that they were going to move him in with her mum, and that she could then take his flat. If the council asked, they'd tell them she was living there "caring" for her granddad (the council obviously won't be told that he's no longer staying there), and when he passes away, she'll get to keep the flat. Their attitude was, and I quote, "we should keep it in the family". They seemed to think that the flat was actually theirs.

How would you describe that behavious, of a white British person, is that fair to all the people on waiting lists? There is a lot more of that stuff going on than there is of immigrants taking the housing. White British people who grow up in social housing, and believe they have a bloody right to it for life.

The point has already been made, but the lack of housing is the real issue. If we all had a subsidised place, great. But given the current amount of housing out there, the points system remains the fairest system available to us.

That post went on a bit, not quite sure what my point was now, but hopefully there are a couple of decent ones in there.

[Jeremy]

Brendan Wrote:

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> Which countries would those be? The ones that

> should be taking people in, the ones that the

> people are coming from, the ones who are

> responsible for the predicaments that the

> countries people are "fleeing" from are in or

> those who are providnig them with aid?

Brendan, I get the impression that you're taking issue with what I've said... and I'm not really sure why.

I am referring to any wealthy nation in western Europe. I believe that stable and wealthy countries have a moral obligation to accomodate asylum seekers and refugees. I also believe that countries should welcome anyone who is willing to work hard, pay taxes, and contribute to society.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

People who have come and claimed asylum DO NOT get bumped to the top of a queue because they are asylum seekers. However, as Tony quite rightly says, they will present themselves as homeless, and for this reason they are prioritised, just as any white british person would be if they presented themselves as homeless.

At last someone with common sense. How refreshing.

All Asylum Seekers present themselves as "Homeless" or "nearly" all, anyway.

Only "some" indigenous people can prove they are homeless and will then join them at the top of the Housing queue.

So the majority of people already in the queue are pushed further down the queue as they are not homeless and priority cases but they are still very much in need ( like having 4 children in a 2 bedroom place, for example ).

Simples.

[louisiana]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

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> louisiana Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > 55, going on 5.5

>

> loiuisiana what a pleasure it is to "engage" with

> you.

>

> Thus far, your only contribution is a petty,

> pathetic, small-minded insult to me.

>

> Now have you been adversely affected in any way by

> the lack of Social Housing over, say, the last 40

> years or so?

My parents were homeless as immigrants in the late 1950s, while my mother was pregnant. They didn't receive any council housing, but found a place in the private sector (a cold attic room in Leicester in someone else's house, followed by a cold room in Hornsey with nothing but floorboards - I remember it well). As a child I also spent some years living in a dark space about the size of a large cupboard, next to the kitchen larder, in an old people's home.

As a 17-year-old, I lived in a tent, not by choice, while I was trying to finish my A levels. Thankfully it was not in the winter.

My mother (post-divorce) was made homeless when the job she was doing, which came with accommodation (nothing fancy) was suddenly abolished and she was made redundant. She ended up staying with a friend for a while. I was also homeless for a time then (and a fairly poor student), so a tough time.

I have also, as an adult, ended up in the position where the hospital I was in would not release me to my 'accommodation' post-operation (attacked by a dog, nearly lost my leg) because it was completely unsuitable for someone recovering from major surgery and serious bacterial wound infections (I was having daily intramuscular antibiotic injections and had to have a salt water bath every day, but there was no bath, for example).

I've never been offered council housing, but then I've never asked for it. I've always regarded it as a last resort.

I'd also point out that things can be more difficult for immigrants because (a) they don't have the kind of family network that other people can often call on and (b) they can face discrimination in the private sector.

Tony, I also wonder whether you'd have preferred to have paid the costs of the education and health of immigrants when they were 0-18 (expensive, paid for by another country), and whether you've thought about who is going to pay for your pension.

[ontheedge]

And in what great need were you for a council flat when you were 19 Tony other than being indigenous. I couldn't afford to live on my own in the private housing sector until I was 30 but never did I think I should be given social housing.

[Brendan]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> Brendan, I get the impression that you're taking

> issue with what I've said... and I'm not really

> sure why.

I?m not taking issue at all. I?m just trying to open the conversation up. Hoping that people might explore the topic more broadly and that we could move away from:

Immigrants, should we or Shouldn?t we?

Because the answers to and arguments for that question are already programmed into everyone depending on which pre-packaged belief system they currently buy into.

I mean what are the chances of this moving out of one dimension or of us hearing anything we haven?t a million times before?