Shocking Sight (boys stabbing a wheelie bin) (Lounged)

[LuLu Too]

Cognitive Dissonance?

[Gimme]

Maybe the thread name should now change to:

"Urban bliss: the joy of seeing young brothers playing with garden shears"

or

"Innocent overreaction: thank goodness I didn't call the police over such a trifle"

[lenk]

Gimme Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Maybe the thread name should now change to:

>

> "Urban bliss: the joy of seeing young brothers

> playing with garden shears"

>

> or

>

> "Innocent overreaction: thank goodness I didn't

> call the police over such a trifle"

You'd think so, but no.

Bet all those who screeched at the top of their voices for martial law to be imposed have gone quiet.

[annaj]

Thanks for letting us know HAL.

Lenk, if you're counting me amongst those that you're sneering at, I'd like to defend myself.

Based on HAL's first post I thought the behaviour ought to have been reported to the police, through their non-emergency reporting, or to the safer neighbourhoods team. I thought this because, in HAL's original post, the behaviour sounded intimidating, aggresive and disruptive, although I can see that on reflection HAL felt far less threatened and alarmed by it and I respect his judgement in choosing not to report it.

There was no screeching and no mention of marshal law or imprisonment in my posts, only in your responses.

You made the point that as a child and adolescent you messed about, experimented and pushed the boundaries of what was allowed and that you modified your behaviour, because you were disciplined (blew up playground, got told off, never did it again). As a general rule children and young people do test boundaries and it is up to adults, the adults that care for them and the adults that surround them in the wider community, to make clear what is acceptable and what's not. That is all I was suggesting. I did try and make that point earlier in the thread, but you ignored my posts entirely. I don't know why, but it's tempting, based on your posts, to think that you're happier sticking with the judgements you make about people than actually listening and finding out what they think and feel or even looking for common ground, which is interesting from someone who gets so upset by prejudice.

As it happens I think HAL approaching them himself and reasoning with them about their behaviour and making them see why it might have caused concern for other people is by far the best solution. The more that we disengage from young people, through fear or disinterest, the wider the gap in understanding between them and us, and the worse off we as a community are.

[HAL9000]

annaj Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I can see that on reflection HAL felt far less

> threatened and alarmed by it

My initial over reaction may have been due to a previous mugging by three youths - in the same area, as it happens - that had left me very badly injured.

> and I respect his

> judgement in choosing not to report it.

I arrived at that view through a process of deduction. Why were the other witnesses unconcerned - perhaps because the boys were known to them and had a good reputation? A notion reinforced by the reverse logic: why were the boys unconcerned - because they were amongst friends and neighbours? If they were local then it was likely they had used a wheelie-bin belonging to one or both of them - in which case they might be related? And so on.

Over the next day or two, I had formulated a hypothesis as to a likely address, their standing within the community, the possibility of sibship and the probability of seeing them again. I felt it was only a matter of time.

> As it happens I think HAL approaching them himself

> and reasoning with them about their behaviour and

> making them see why it might have caused concern

> for other people is by far the best solution. The

> more that we disengage from young people, through

> fear or disinterest, the wider the gap in

> understanding between them and us, and the worse

> off we as a community are.

I'm glad you agree - at times it felt a little uncomfortable being at odds with the consensus view.

I strongly believe that anti-social behaviour by our children should be tackled at source - within the family, the community and the educational system - rather than as an afterthought through law enforcement, which, as you say, is more likely to alienate them from social responsibility as adults.

Every time we run to the police to ameliorate our own failings, we empower them to usurp evermore of our freedoms and liberties. That?s a quick route to societal collapse, IMHO.

[The Joker]

The solution is simple - arm the wheelie bins so they can defend themselves in future.

[lenk]

HAL9000 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> annaj Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I can see that on reflection HAL felt far less

> > threatened and alarmed by it

>

> My initial over reaction may have been due to a

> previous mugging by three youths - in the same

> area, as it happens - that had left me very badly

> injured.

>

> > and I respect his

> > judgement in choosing not to report it.

>

> I arrived at that view through a process of

> deduction. Why were the other witnesses

> unconcerned - perhaps because the boys were known

> to them and had a good reputation? A notion

> reinforced by the reverse logic: why were the boys

> unconcerned - because they were amongst friends

> and neighbours? If they were local then it was

> likely they had used a wheelie-bin belonging to

> one or both of them - in which case they might be

> related? And so on.

>

> Over the next day or two, I had formulated a

> hypothesis as to a likely address, their standing

> within the community, the possibility of sibship

> and the probability of seeing them again. I felt

> it was only a matter of time.

>

> > As it happens I think HAL approaching them

> himself

> > and reasoning with them about their behaviour

> and

> > making them see why it might have caused

> concern

> > for other people is by far the best solution.

> The

> > more that we disengage from young people,

> through

> > fear or disinterest, the wider the gap in

> > understanding between them and us, and the

> worse

> > off we as a community are.

>

> I'm glad you agree - at times it felt a little

> uncomfortable being at odds with the consensus

> view.

>

> I strongly believe that anti-social behaviour by

> our children should be tackled at source - within

> the family, the community and the educational

> system - rather than as an afterthought through

> law enforcement, which, as you say, is more likely

> to alienate them from social responsibility as

> adults.

>

> Every time we run to the police to ameliorate our

> own failings, we empower them to usurp evermore of

> our freedoms and liberties. That?s a quick route

> to societal collapse, IMHO.

Oh please. my dad used to carry a knife in 1950's Coventry.

Brighton Rock is about a knife crime.

Plus ca change etc.

'societal collapse' is such an emotive over-reaction to something that always has, and always will be there.

[HAL9000]

lenk Wrote:

> 'societal collapse'

I couldn't resist - it's such a lovely phrase.

> is such an emotive

> over-reaction to something that always has, and

> always will be there.

History records that almost all proletariat-led revolutions resulted from the erosion of civil liberties and/or the intolerable taxation needed to support an oppressive regime.

[Gimme]

HAL9000 - why bother starting this (admittedly entertaining) thread if you weren't that bothered and didn't see it as an issue. Was it merely to showcase your superb vocabulary and ability to write like a sociologist?

You don't write a column for the Guardian do you?

[HAL9000]

I thought it was an interesting and legitimate topic for discussion. I didn't expect to become part of the problem, though, that was a surprise. I've learnt a lot from the thread - it's been a journey of self-discovery, in some respects. I appreciate your thoughtful input despite not agreeing with you. I don't think I'd be so quick to share a similar experience with the forum again.

I hope I didn't come across as not being bothered or not seeing it as an issue - I do take such issues seriously and feel that I have followed through to a resolution that satisfied my social conscience without over reacting. I don't feel any further action is necessary in this case.

[lenk]

I've just attacked my bin with a kitana sword in frustration

[HAL9000]

Actually, I've developed an almost irresistible urge to stab a wheelie-bin. I'm curious to see whether a well-plunged Fairburn Sykes would pierce all the way through the plastic?

[Gimme]

Don't be put off HAL9000. This thread has caused lots of entertainment.

There's nothing like the cut and thrust of a good debate.

[lenk]

Some rapier-like wit on display too

[annaj]

Lenk, any chance you might respond to any of my direct questions? Or are you just going to keep writing off anyone who disagrees with you as a hysterical extremist without actually listening or engaging?

[HAL9000]

I just hope we haven't caused any undue anxiety amongst our long-suffering population of wheelie-bins.

[lenk]

annaj Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lenk, any chance you might respond to any of my

> direct questions? Or are you just going to keep

> writing off anyone who disagrees with you as a

> hysterical extremist without actually listening or

> engaging?

I don't think I've ever read one of your posts.

A precis?

[annaj]

Not read mine specifically or not really read any of the posts on this thread properly before jumping in?

If the former, any particular reason? If the latter, that would explain a lot.

[lenk]

you've posted some salient points I'm sure, which I would love to sift through and digest - but your last post is an 800-word epic - with all the will in the world I just can't face ploughing through that - it's a forum, not a library.

ask me sucinct, direct, bullet-pointed questions and I'll answer them.

set me an essay to write and I probably won't.

[annaj]

Sorry to bore you, you're obviously too busy and important and convinced of your own rightness to actually read what other people are saying.

Ok, bullet points you say

1. where and when did I screech for marshal law or imprisonment of these boys?

I'll answer that one for you, I didn't, but that what you accused everyone who didn't agree with you of doing.

2. What, exactly is the difference between what you were saying (I was a bad boy as a kid and got up to some mischief, blowing stuff up and the like, but I got told off and learnt my lesson) and what I was saying (these boys were pushing boundaries and needed discipline (not imprisonment or anything extreme, just discipline) to show them it wasn't acceptable)?

[The Joker]

What I want to know is when are the local community going to do something about black binliner on black binliner crime?

[lenk]

This thread has moved from self-parody, through to self-parody, before arriving at some nice meta-analysis and finally parking up at self-parody lane again.

Kudos to all involved.

[annaj]

Soooo... that's a no on answering questions then?

Thought so.

I'm sure you've stopped reading my tiresome essay already, but for what it's worth I quite often agree with some of what you're saying, although often not how you say it, and that is why I thought it might be worth trying to actually engange you in debate. Won't bother next time.

[lenk]

OK -

I didn't get disciplined for loads of bad things, far worse than playing with shears that I did when I was younger - because I never got caught.

I'm yet to murder anyone.

I'm sure these lads won't either.

My parents weren't lax, I knew the difference between right and wrong, but wrong is often more attractive.

Bar actually beating the malevolence out of them I think they would have done it were you there to witness it or not.

New thread.

[HAL9000]

Just claiming my first thread's 100 mark!