Shocking Sight (boys stabbing a wheelie bin) (Lounged)

[HAL9000]

Matt: the point I'm making is that I cannot positively identify the two boys in question. The risks of letting loose the dogs of law on that basis are too great given the frequency of miscarriages within our criminal justice system.

More importantly, how can kids go through what is supposed to be one of the finest education systems in the world and still not know the difference between right and wrong? Someone has screwed up big time, and it isn?t those kids.

[lenk]

matthew123 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Anyone can pick up a knife and poke it in a

> wheelie bin a few times but 'frenzied stabbing

> attacks' strikes me as it would probably have been

> for the best if they'd been thrown in the back of

> a dog van and taken off to bostal for 6 months.

Of course it's not like this forum to exaggerate details...

[Domitianus]

HAL9000 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Matt: the point I'm making is that I cannot

> positively identify the two boys in question. The

> risks of letting loose the dogs of law on that

> basis are too great given the frequency of

> miscarriages within our criminal justice system.

>

> More importantly, how can kids go through what is

> supposed to be one of the finest education systems

> in the world and still not know the difference

> between right and wrong? Someone has screwed up

> big time, and it isn?t those kids.

But if you had pulled your finger out at the time the cops might have come round to catch them in the act thereby obviating any risk of mistaken identity. The notion that we shouldn't report crimes on the basis that there have been miscarriages of justice in the past is, if accepted, a reason NEVER to report ANY sort of crime EVER!!!! Is that a productive policy? I think not.

And, whilst my respect for the police is seriously compromised, I think you grossly exagerrate the potential outcomes for these lads. I believe that any convictions whilst a juvenile are formally "sealed" once they reach the age of majority in order to prevent exacxtly what you foresee.

Let me, however, get out my crystal ball and tell you what I see. A couple of young lads are running round practicing their 'stabbing' moves on an inanimate object. They are allowed to do so, even when noticed by an adult who goes onto a local bulletin board - all 'shock/horror but I did nothing!' They get into a bit of a fight with some other lads their own age and, with the red mist descending, out come the knives for a bit of show. The other guys don't back down, ego becomes involved, the situation escalates and we see a bunch of kids stabbing each other in broad daylight - JUST LIKE HAPPENED ON LL A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO!!!!!!

How would you feel HAL9000 if somewthing like that happened and the photos of the kids arrested for a fatal stabbing bear a stunning resemblance to the kids you didn't want to grass up to the Evil Old Bill? Or if you were called to do Jury Service, the case was a stabbing and there the little buggers were sitting in the dock?

[Domitianus]

Domitianus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> HAL9000 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Matt: the point I'm making is that I cannot

> > positively identify the two boys in question.

> The

> > risks of letting loose the dogs of law on that

> > basis are too great given the frequency of

> > miscarriages within our criminal justice

> system.

> >

> > More importantly, how can kids go through what

> is

> > supposed to be one of the finest education

> systems

> > in the world and still not know the difference

> > between right and wrong? Someone has screwed up

> > big time, and it isn?t those kids.

>

>

> But if you had pulled your finger out at the time

> the cops might have come round to catch them in

> the act thereby obviating any risk of mistaken

> identity. The notion that we shouldn't report

> crimes on the basis that there have been

> miscarriages of justice in the past is, if

> accepted, a reason NEVER to report ANY sort of

> crime EVER!!!! Is that a productive policy? I

> think not.

>

> And, whilst my respect for the police is seriously

> compromised, I think you grossly exagerrate the

> potential outcomes for these lads. I believe that

> any convictions whilst a juvenile are formally

> "sealed" once they reach the age of majority in

> order to prevent exacxtly what you foresee.

>

> Let me, however, get out my crystal ball and tell

> you what I see. A couple of young lads are

> running round practicing their 'stabbing' moves on

> an inanimate object. They are allowed to do so,

> even when noticed by an adult who goes onto a

> local bulletin board - all 'shock/horror but I did

> nothing!' They get into a bit of a fight with

> some other lads their own age and, with the red

> mist descending, out come the knives for a bit of

> show. The other guys don't back down, ego becomes

> involved, the situation escalates and we see a

> bunch of kids stabbing each other in broad

> daylight - JUST LIKE HAPPENED ON LL A COUPLE OF

> WEEKS AGO!!!!!!

>

> How would you feel HAL9000 if somewthing like that

> happened and the photos of the kids arrested for a

> fatal stabbing bear a stunning resemblance to the

> kids you didn't want to grass up to the Evil Old

> Bill? Or if you were called to do Jury Service,

> the case was a stabbing and there the little

> buggers were sitting in the dock?

And white youths practicing their stabbing moves reminds me very much of the secret film of the suspects in the Steven Lawrence case whilst they were in custody.

[lenk]

Domitianus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Let me, however, get out my crystal ball and tell

> you what I see. A couple of young lads are

> running round practicing their 'stabbing' moves on

> an inanimate object. They are allowed to do so,

> even when noticed by an adult who goes onto a

> local bulletin board - all 'shock/horror but I did

> nothing!' They get into a bit of a fight with

> some other lads their own age and, with the red

> mist descending, out come the knives for a bit of

> show. The other guys don't back down, ego becomes

> involved, the situation escalates and we see a

> bunch of kids stabbing each other in broad

> daylight - JUST LIKE HAPPENED ON LL A COUPLE OF

> WEEKS AGO!!!!!!

For god's sake - I used to have a Gurkha knife, Chinese Stars, and an air rifle - not to mention the aforementioned explosives tinkering.

We used to throw the Gurkha knife full pelt at a bit of fence in the woods near my house to 'practice our survival skills' or somesuch.

Funnily enough, it's what you do when you're a kid.

we never got round to stabbing anyone.

I used to listen to tons of gangsta rap but never once owned a gun.

Now I have some kind of wanky media job and live in curtain-twitch, SE London.

that's my story

[Domitianus]

Yeah, and my brother had a Fairnbarn Sykes commando dagger which he accidentally managed to poke in my younger brother's face. And a friend of mine was witness to a murder where a friend of hers, after a silly argument over a girl, was stabbed in the chest. And when the assailant realised the victim was still alive he went back and stuck his knife up the guys's nose into his brain, leaving my friend, deeply traumatised, holding her friend's head as he bled to death in her arms.

So we all have stories. Fact is, when you and I were lads, mucking about with knives probably wasn't illegal - it is now! And since the OP was clearly worried about the activities of the lads in question and thought it alarming, rather than a bit of innocent fun, the obvious question is "why didn't he report it?" My point is that the argument about a corrupt police forces framing and ruining the lives of innocent individuals doesn't add up as any type of reasonable answer to that question.

[HAL9000]

Domitianus Wrote:

> And white youths practicing their stabbing moves

> reminds me very much of the secret film of the

> suspects in the Steven Lawrence case whilst they

> were in custody.

And that "evidence" came to nought in yet another classic miscarriage of justice! Reports like this one hardly inspire confidence:

"On 25 July 2006, the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) announced it had asked the Metropolitan Police to look into alleged claims of police corruption that may have helped hide the killers of Stephen Lawrence.

A BBC investigation alleged that the murder inquiry's Det. Sgt. John Davidson had taken money from known drug smuggler Clifford Norris, the father of David Norris, a chief suspect in the investigation. Neil Putnam, a former corrupt police detective turned whistleblower, told a BBC investigation that Clifford Norris was paying Mr Davidson to obstruct the case and to protect the suspects. "Davidson told me that he was looking after Norris and that to me meant that he was protecting him, protecting his family against arrest and any conviction," Putnam said. Davidson denied any such corruption."

- Quoted from Stephen Lawrence (accessed 08-Jul-09 at 12:30pm)

[HAL9000]

Domitianus Wrote:

> But if you had pulled your finger out at the time

> the cops might have come round to catch them in

> the act thereby obviating any risk of mistaken

> identity.

At the time, I wasn't aware that an offence might have been committed (I didn't know about the recent change in the law regarding knives). However, I'm still not convinced that any crime was committed after reading the relevant law (as cited in a previous post).

The distinction whereby a 3 inch blade is legal but a 3.25 inch blade isn't seems arbitrary and, frankly, ridiculous.

> How would you feel...

I've no problem. My conscience is clear. In my youth, most of my peers carried knives and knew how to use them. But we also knew not to run around stabbing wheelie bins in broad daylight.

[Domitianus]

HAL9000 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Domitianus Wrote:

> > But if you had pulled your finger out at the

> time

> > the cops might have come round to catch them in

> > the act thereby obviating any risk of mistaken

> > identity.

>

> At the time, I wasn't aware that an offence might

> have been committed (I didn't know about the

> recent change in the law regarding knives).

> However, I'm still not convinced that any crime

> was committed after reading the relevant law (as

> cited in a previous post).

>

> The distinction whereby a 3 inch blade is legal

> but a 3.25 inch blade isn't seems arbitrary and,

> frankly, ridiculous.

>

> > How would you feel...

>

> I've no problem. My conscience is clear. In my

> youth, most of my peers carried knives and knew

> how to use them. But we also knew not to run

> around stabbing wheelie bins in broad daylight.

I don't find either of your posts convincing or relevant in any way. With regard to the corruption you refer to in the Lawrence case, it seems as if the corruption was designed to PROTECT a guilty party, not frame someone. My reference to the Lawrence case was designed to illustrate that, in that case anyway, those who were happy to lark around pretending to stab people were also happy enough to do so in real life. Sure they weren't convicted, innocent until proven guilty and all that, but I doubt there are many who really believe that Norris et al weren't guilty as sin. I don't think that the Met have ever seriously considered any other possible suspects.

And if your conscience is clear and running around with knives is just a normal thing that kids do, then what on earth was the point of your OP????? Were you really struck with "horror" just because these lads were vandalising a wheelie-bin???? Your indignation, as it came across anyway, seemed to be as much to do with the fact that these youths were flashing blades around in public!

[HAL9000]

Domitianus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't find either of your posts convincing or

> relevant in any way. With regard to the

> corruption you refer to in the Lawrence case, it

> seems as if the corruption was designed to PROTECT

> a guilty party, not frame someone.

It is still relevant. If the kid's father is a protected drug dealer or a corrupt copper, where does that leave the witness? Hint: not in a good place.

> My reference

> to the Lawrence case was designed to illustrate

> that, in that case anyway, those who were happy to

> lark around pretending to stab people were also

> happy enough to do so in real life.

If you want something serious to worry about: how about all the young men who have been trained by the authorities to kill with a single stab to the heart and then traumatised in the battle fields of Iraq and Afghanistan before being dumped back into society?

> Sure they

> weren't convicted, innocent until proven guilty

> and all that, but I doubt there are many who

> really believe that Norris et al weren't guilty as

> sin. I don't think that the Met have ever

> seriously considered any other possible suspects.

You appear to have one interpretation of the law when it suits you and another when it doesn't.

> and running around

> with knives is just a normal thing that kids do,

It was normal in my youth - the current anomaly is an epidemic of related crimes. We didn?t have that.

> then what on earth was the point of your OP?????

> Were you really struck with "horror" just because

> these lads were vandalising a wheelie-bin????

> Your indignation, as it came across anyway, seemed

> to be as much to do with the fact that these

> youths were flashing blades around in public!

They were doing it in plain view, stopped to let me pass then carried on again. That suggested to me that they did not think they were doing anything wrong. It's not the kids' actions that horrified me so much (in retrospect), it's what their behaviour says about the state of our society - a point I've already made in earlier posts.

However, regarding the legality, if they had been practicing in their own backyards, even with 12-inch butchers' knives, it would have been perfectly legal.

[ayresc]

I say give them all stab vests, let them protect themselves at least.

[Domitianus]

HAL9000 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Domitianus Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I don't find either of your posts convincing or

> > relevant in any way. With regard to the

> > corruption you refer to in the Lawrence case,

> it

> > seems as if the corruption was designed to

> PROTECT

> > a guilty party, not frame someone.

>

> It is still relevant. If the kid's father is a

> protected drug dealer or a corrupt copper, where

> does that leave the witness? Hint: not in a good

> place.

>

> > My reference

> > to the Lawrence case was designed to illustrate

> > that, in that case anyway, those who were happy

> to

> > lark around pretending to stab people were also

> > happy enough to do so in real life.

>

> If you want something serious to worry about: how

> about all the young men who have been trained by

> the authorities to kill with a single stab to the

> heart and then traumatised in the battle fields of

> Iraq and Afghanistan before being dumped back into

> society?

>

> > Sure they

> > weren't convicted, innocent until proven guilty

> > and all that, but I doubt there are many who

> > really believe that Norris et al weren't guilty

> as

> > sin. I don't think that the Met have ever

> > seriously considered any other possible

> suspects.

>

> You appear to have one interpretation of the law

> when it suits you and another when it doesn't.

>

> > and running around

> > with knives is just a normal thing that kids

> do,

>

> It was normal in my youth - the current anomaly is

> an epidemic of related crimes. We didn?t have

> that.

>

> > then what on earth was the point of your

> OP?????

> > Were you really struck with "horror" just

> because

> > these lads were vandalising a wheelie-bin????

> > Your indignation, as it came across anyway,

> seemed

> > to be as much to do with the fact that these

> > youths were flashing blades around in public!

>

> They were doing it in plain view, stopped to let

> me pass then carried on again. That suggested to

> me that they did not think they were doing

> anything wrong. It's not the kids' actions that

> horrified me so much (in retrospect), it's what

> their behaviour says about the state of our

> society - a point I've already made in earlier

> posts.

>

> However, regarding the legality, if they had been

> practicing in their own backyards, even with

> 12-inch butchers' knives, it would have been

> perfectly legal.

Since you have either missed or deliberately misinterpreted all my points I don't think I'll bother re-iterating or clarifying any of them, save to point out your own blatant contradictions. You say that kids carrying knives was normal in your day, that these kids seem to think their behaviour normal, that their behaviour DIDN'T horrify you in retrospect - yet you then go on to suggest that all this 'normal', 'non-horrifying' behaviour says something terrible abut the state of our society?????? What exactly does it say, if it is so normal and not horrifying at all?

And if you want us to worry about the military in Iraq and Afghanistan, then start a thread about tha subject, not one about such "normal" behaviour as kids running around with knives.

And "...trained by the authorities to kill with a single stab to the heart..."? I think you have been reading too many Andy McNabb novels.

[HAL9000]

Domitianus Wrote:

> Since you have either missed or deliberately

> misinterpreted all my points

Nope - nothing of the sort.

> I don't think I'll

> bother re-iterating or clarifying any of them,

> save to point out your own blatant contradictions.

Ok, lets look at that:

> You say that kids carrying knives was normal in your day,

I don?t know what you mean by "normal" - that's your word, not mine. I said some of my peer group carried knives.

> that these kids seem to think their behaviour normal,

No. I said they didn?t appear to think they were doing anything wrong. Very different. (Incidentally, without mens rea there is no crime of specific intent under English law.)

> that their behaviour DIDN'T horrify you in retrospect -

I said "...as much (in retrospect)" - at the time it did bother me, as per the original post.

> yet you then go on to suggest that all this 'normal',

> 'non-horrifying' behaviour ...

Your words again, not mine.

> ... says something terrible abut the state of our society??????

An issue raised in a later post under the caveat "Further thoughts on this" ...

> What exactly does it say, if it is so normal and not horrifying at all?

Again, those aren't my words. You have misrepresented and miscomprehended what I said. There is no contradiction on my part, blatant or otherwise.

In response to your question, I think it is reasonable to assume that knives per se are not the underlying cause of the recent epidemic of knife-related crime since they've always been around and their possession remains legal. Therefore, the cause must lie elsewhere within society: it may be a deficiency in either education or upbringing - or some combination of both - or some other factor(s) we have yet to identify. Whatever the cause, it's a disturbing development. I've already stated how I think it should be addressed in an earlier post.

> And "...trained by the authorities to kill with a

> single stab to the heart..."? I think you have

> been reading too many Andy McNabb novels.

The Army's Basic Combat Training currently includes the technique of creeping up behind an enemy soldier or sentry and muffling their cries with the left hand whilst thrusting a dagger held in the right hand upwards under the ribcage piercing the heart and left lung. See attached drawing.

[Domitianus]

Listen HAL9000, I don't mean to have a go at you but this whole bl**dy thread is getting incredibly dumb - even by EDF standards.

You posted an OP in which you expressed "horror" (your words - go back and check) that two youths were launching "frenzied stabbing attacks on a wheelie bin!" (your words again) with six inch knives. I think any reasonable person would assume from your use of the words "horror" and "frenzied stabbing attacks" that you found this behaviour somewhat alarming. The fact that you posted on EDF about the matter suggests that it also caused you some disquiet that you wished to share.

You further stated (and I quote your words) "I was somewhat shocked and anxious to get away as quickly as possible so avoided making eye contact. I didn't have a mobile and it took a little while to walk back home because I returned via a different route. I went for a drive around the area later with a camera but the streets are full of similar looking youngsters making their way to the fair at the nearby park."

So you were telling us that you were "shocked and anxious" and keen to get away from the location. You were so shocked and anxious that you avoided any confrontation with these youths by avoiding eye contact. And you considered the matter serious enough to take a camera and cruise round the area, I can only assume in the hope of finding these youths and capturing photographic evidence (why else would you have gone back with a camera?)

You have now shifted your position to telling us that with hindsight you are not really that horrified (an accurate paraphrasing of your words), that the blades were probably half as long as you had previously reported and, despite the lads being 12 - 15 years old (and therefore under the age of criminal responsibility, and eligible to have any juvenile misdemeanour record sealed upon turning 18 anyway)) you hallucinated the following egregious miscarriage of justice, carried out by the Filth and the jurisprudence system to destroy two innocent lives.

"My report would be insufficient to guarantee proper identification. Look at the police and judicial fiasco surrounding the Damilola Taylor case (et al). The risk of yet another great British miscarriage of justice is simply too great given the current hysteria surrounding knife crime, especially in this area. A high-level decision to make an example in this case could lead to their lives being permanently blighted in what is rapidly becoming a corruption-riddled, authoritarian police state. A regime I no longer trust.

Their educational and career options would be limited. Their DNA would be entered into the national database. They could lose their liberty. They'd forever be suspects in the eyes of the police. And their travel options would be restricted. They would become second-class citizens in many respects - all for a few minutes of misguided horseplay."

Evidently, if your report could not identify the youths concerned, it is almost paranoic to assume that the police would simply scoop two likely lads and frame them for a bit of vandalism. Such a position would be ample reason for not reporting ANY crime ever. If your kids were stabbed would you refuse to report it in case the police got the wrong people (Damilola Taylor, remember?). If your house was broken into would you refuse to report it in case The Man got his evil claws into the wrong person? If you were mugged in the street and didn't get a good look at the person who smashed a brick round your head would you choose to keep mum in case the Rozzers framed the nearest person to the scene? I doubt it.

If people have ended up being a little confused about your position perhaps it is because it has been so inconsistent???? And when we get to the stage of discussing Iraq and Afghanistan, and methods of silently eliminating sentries in a thread on knife crime and vandalism in ED I think the plot has been well and truly lost. My only information on the last issue was when I read Bravo Two Zero many years ago and Andy McNabb said that the notion of dispatching anyone with one swift blow was a nonsense, that you cut and cut until the victim bleeds to death. Cheery stuff.

I am now off to lie on my bed in a seedy hotel room, drink whiskey and stare at the ceiling fan. We're done here!

[Domitianus]

HAL9000 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Domitianus Wrote:

> > Since you have either missed or deliberately

> > misinterpreted all my points

>

> Nope - nothing of the sort.

>

> > I don't think I'll

> > bother re-iterating or clarifying any of them,

> > save to point out your own blatant

> contradictions.

>

> Ok, lets look at that:

>

> > You say that kids carrying knives was normal in

> your day,

>

> I don?t know what you mean by "normal" - that's

> your word, not mine. I said some of my peer group

> carried knives.

>

> > that these kids seem to think their behaviour

> normal,

>

> No. I said they didn?t appear to think they were

> doing anything wrong. Very different.

> (Incidentally, without mens rea there is no crime

> of specific intent under English law.)

>

> > that their behaviour DIDN'T horrify you in

> retrospect -

>

> I said "...as much (in retrospect)" - at the time

> it did bother me, as per the original post.

>

> > yet you then go on to suggest that all this

> 'normal',

> > 'non-horrifying' behaviour ...

>

> Your words again, not mine.

>

> > ... says something terrible abut the state of

> our society??????

>

> An issue raised in a later post under the caveat

> "Further thoughts on this" ...

>

> > What exactly does it say, if it is so normal and

> not horrifying at all?

>

> Again, those aren't my words. You have

> misrepresented and miscomprehended what I said.

> There is no contradiction on my part, blatant or

> otherwise.

>

> In response to your question, I think it is

> reasonable to assume that knives per se are not

> the underlying cause of the recent epidemic of

> knife-related crime since they've always been

> around and their possession remains legal.

> Therefore, the cause must lie elsewhere within

> society: it may be a deficiency in either

> education or upbringing - or some combination of

> both - or some other factor(s) we have yet to

> identify. Whatever the cause, it's a disturbing

> development. I've already stated how I think it

> should be addressed in an earlier post.

>

> > And "...trained by the authorities to kill with

> a

> > single stab to the heart..."? I think you have

> > been reading too many Andy McNabb novels.

>

> The Army's Basic Combat Training currently

> includes the technique of creeping up behind an

> enemy soldier or sentry and muffling their cries

> with the left hand whilst thrusting a dagger held

> in the right hand upwards under the ribcage

> piercing the heart and left lung. See attached

> drawing.

P.S. The attached drawing seems to show a German soldier buggering a decent British Tommy! No knife visible. No hand over mouth. The swine!

[Gimme]

Probably cant add anything that Domitianus (great tag BTW) has already said but I was pretty surprised by HAL9000's points that:

"However, I'm still not convinced that any crime was committed after reading the relevant law (as cited in a previous post"

and

"No. I said they didn?t appear to think they were doing anything wrong. Very different. (Incidentally, without mens rea there is no crime of specific intent under English law.) "

Do you really think that if someone doesn't think that they are doing anything wrong then there's no mens rea?

The mens rea refers to whether they intend to stab the bin or carry the knife, not whether they thought there was anything wrong with it. If the knife got caught on the cardigans of the kids and banged into the bins as they walked past unaware that the knives had been caught on their cardigans then there would probably be no mens rea.

As soon as they left the house with a knife they had mens rea to commit the offense of carrying an offensive weapon and as soon as they pulled back their arms and thrust the knives into the bins they had mens rea to commit the offence of criminal damage. And, from your description, yes they did commit those crimes!!!

Lets face it, whatever the excuses, from the original thread posted, it sounds like you saw a crime being committed, and you were scared of the consequences of reporting the crime. You are not unusual in urban society. However, the non-reporting of things like this is one the reason why kids aren't that deterred from carrying knives - if they won't get caught, why be deterred.

The police can't be everywhere and see everything. They need people to report knife carrying so they can target the knife carriers. We can't complain about our streets being unsafe if we're unwilling to participate in helping to make them safer.

Apologies in advance if this makes the thread longer....

[Gimme]

Oops, didn't mean to add much but ended up doing so. Got carried away. Sorry.

[lenk]

EDF eats itself

[Jeremy]

ayresc Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I say give them all stab vests, let them protect themselves at least.

Stab vests for wheelie bins? I can tell you that these are pretty much standard issue in Camberwell.

[Domitianus]

Domitianus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> HAL9000 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Domitianus Wrote:

> > > Since you have either missed or deliberately

> > > misinterpreted all my points

> >

> > Nope - nothing of the sort.

> >

> > > I don't think I'll

> > > bother re-iterating or clarifying any of

> them,

> > > save to point out your own blatant

> > contradictions.

> >

> > Ok, lets look at that:

> >

> > > You say that kids carrying knives was normal

> in

> > your day,

> >

> > I don?t know what you mean by "normal" - that's

> > your word, not mine. I said some of my peer

> group

> > carried knives.

> >

> > > that these kids seem to think their behaviour

> > normal,

> >

> > No. I said they didn?t appear to think they

> were

> > doing anything wrong. Very different.

> > (Incidentally, without mens rea there is no

> crime

> > of specific intent under English law.)

> >

> > > that their behaviour DIDN'T horrify you in

> > retrospect -

> >

> > I said "...as much (in retrospect)" - at the

> time

> > it did bother me, as per the original post.

> >

> > > yet you then go on to suggest that all this

> > 'normal',

> > > 'non-horrifying' behaviour ...

> >

> > Your words again, not mine.

> >

> > > ... says something terrible abut the state of

> > our society??????

> >

> > An issue raised in a later post under the

> caveat

> > "Further thoughts on this" ...

> >

> > > What exactly does it say, if it is so normal

> and

> > not horrifying at all?

> >

> > Again, those aren't my words. You have

> > misrepresented and miscomprehended what I said.

> > There is no contradiction on my part, blatant

> or

> > otherwise.

> >

> > In response to your question, I think it is

> > reasonable to assume that knives per se are not

> > the underlying cause of the recent epidemic of

> > knife-related crime since they've always been

> > around and their possession remains legal.

> > Therefore, the cause must lie elsewhere within

> > society: it may be a deficiency in either

> > education or upbringing - or some combination

> of

> > both - or some other factor(s) we have yet to

> > identify. Whatever the cause, it's a disturbing

> > development. I've already stated how I think it

> > should be addressed in an earlier post.

> >

> > > And "...trained by the authorities to kill

> with

> > a

> > > single stab to the heart..."? I think you

> have

> > > been reading too many Andy McNabb novels.

> >

> > The Army's Basic Combat Training currently

> > includes the technique of creeping up behind an

> > enemy soldier or sentry and muffling their

> cries

> > with the left hand whilst thrusting a dagger

> held

> > in the right hand upwards under the ribcage

> > piercing the heart and left lung. See attached

> > drawing.

>

> P.S. The attached drawing seems to show a German

> soldier buggering a decent British Tommy! No

> knife visible. No hand over mouth. The swine!

May I correct myself? I believe the kindly Hun is actually performing a Heimlich Manoeuvre upon a poor British squaddy who has got a lump of corned beef stuck in his throat. So hard to tell the difference between silent assassination, buggery and emergency first aid. Good job I never became a paramedic!

[lenk]

I noticed 2 boys firing an RPG at some recycling facilities in Peckham Rye Park yesterday, I hope this isn't another sad indication of the continual slide of our society into lawlessness!

[HAL9000]

Well, if nothing else, this thread has sharply contrasted the strength and nature of my feelings towards the police relative to those of the general population (if this forum is a fair representation). The inconsistencies in my approach must be down to this phobia - I do tend to avoid contact with the police wherever possible.

I see a great danger in relying on an ever-burgeoning civilian militia to solve problems superficially rather than tackling them at source. An Orwellian nightmare lies at the end of that path. As things stand, we are only one Act of Parliament away from a full-blown police state - an outcome that is probably inevitable in the not too distant future.

[HAL9000]

Domitianus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And you considered the matter

> serious enough to take a camera and cruise round

> the area, I can only assume in the hope of finding

> these youths and capturing photographic evidence

> (why else would you have gone back with a camera?)

Even if I had been able a identify them, I still don't think I would have been able to bring myself to report them to the police. This thread has convinced me of that - definitely some sort of deep-seated issue at work here.

[lenk]

HAL9000 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Domitianus Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > And you considered the matter

> > serious enough to take a camera and cruise

> round

> > the area, I can only assume in the hope of

> finding

> > these youths and capturing photographic

> evidence

> > (why else would you have gone back with a

> camera?)

>

> Even if I had been able a identify them, I still

> don't think I would have been able to bring myself

> to report them to the police. This thread has

> convinced me of that - definitely some sort of

> deep-seated issue at work here.

Absolutely. The mob of hardline reactionary imbiciles worries me far more than any bin-stabbing innocents.

I hate that fact that I even live in the same postcode as half the people on this thread.

[HAL9000]

I saw those kids again on Sunday. They were playing football in the same street. They are brothers: very polite, respectful and well spoken. I told them that they had freaked me out and were lucky not to have been arrested. I gave them a stern warning about the potential consequences of that type of behaviour. They were genuinely concerned and apologised profusely. I asked where they got the knives? They weren't knives - they had been sent out to trim a hedge with a small pair of shears that had snapped in the process! I wasn't able to determine exactly what they were doing - all they said was, 'we were only mucking about - having a laugh - just pretending,' etc. Perhaps they didn't understand the question or were too embarrassed to say? I don?t know.

Anyway, I'm now doubly glad that I hadn't over-reacted to the original incident.