Drivers be aware. (toddlers on bikes, Hindmans Road)

[Morag]

Friday,I was shocked to see, a woman on a bike,a baby on the back, and in front of her, a boy around five, on another little bike,and in front of him ,another littlew bike with a toddler on,They werw all heading for the junction on Hindmans road, near Upland road, at speed. The mother?? was shouting orders fifteen feet behind. The whole thing made me shudder.If it was you, you may not have heard me shout at the time, So here it is again. YOU STUPID COW.

[Andystar]

Woah, that's totally crazy. I wish i'd been there to see you shout at her

[EDKiwi]

Were any of them wearing helmets?

I still can't understand people not wearing helmets on bikes over here (they're required by law in NZ). Even if you decide you don't need to wear one you'd think you'd at least put them on your kids.

The other day I saw a young teenager biking along with a toddler under his arm (like a sack of spuds) biking along a busy main road, now that made me cringe.

[annaj]

Whilst her behaviour doesn't sound that safe or sensible, do you really think that shouting at her, thereby distracting her and frightening the children, was helpful or constructive?

We can't control other road users behaviour, but we can moderate our own. Surely just slowing down and giving them a wide berth would've been the safe option?

[Morag]

Yes they did have helmets on, so none of them could hear, You cannot say they were distracted by anything, they could not even hear their mother???.They were not aware, being too young and so low down, a car could have crushed them turning into the road, It was no place to have children that age and so small in the middle of the road. If one of the many speeding motorbikes that go up this road; had come along, it would have been carnage. The little toddler,even went over the Giveway line, Gut reaction is to shout in this situation, so dont be condescending to me. Those children need someone who is not going to risk their lives in a R.T.A. Stupid bloody woman.

[KalamityKel]

I hardly think Annaj is being condescending to anyone here merely pointing out a bit of common sense. Yes, whilst the scenario you've described is quite shocking, as pointed out, further offering a distraction to the situation was not wise. By shouting over at them they could have in turn have looked over to where the sound was coming from and caused an accident. Yes, you could say it wouldve been an accident waiting to happen but it could have been you to have tipped the odds on it.

[Domitianus]

Do cycling helmets really cover the ears leaving the wearer unable to hear?

[PeterW]

My tuppence on two issues linked to this:

- Afraid I have to agree with the consensus, Morag. Shouting abuse like that might make you feel morally superior but it's a bit counter-intuitive when you're supposedly wanting to protect the welfare of the kids. Could startle them (not to mention upset them). This is doubly the case if you were driving a car. Cyclists are so used to getting random abuse from car drivers the mother probably heard it but ignored it.

- EdKiwi, I'm afraid your arguments on helmets are, perhaps, a bit simplistic. There's a perfectly good argument for children wearing them, but compulsion for all has been shown not to work. In all countries where it's been tried ? NZ included ? accident rates have fallen but in the main because cycling use has plummeted. An Australian professor of actuarial science has just published an interesting study which concludes that when countries pass helmet compulsion laws it asctually ends up costing their health services money in the long term, as the reduction in injuries to cyclists is more than cancelled out by increased obesity etc as activity levels drop.

There's other countries ? the Netherlands and Denmark spring to mind ? where helmets are almost unknown as cycling is an everyday activity done by so many people, not some supposdedly dangerous pursuit where you have to dress up like a gladiator. This works in no small part because drivers treat cyclists with respect and don't just try and push past them.

As a side note, in Copenhagen or the Hague, Morag's cycling family would be much less exceptional. You certainly wouldn't get passers-by yelling abuse.

[SeanMacGabhann]

* reads PeterW's post *

* looks at his previous posts and realises only 8 to date *

* hopes for more *

[EDKiwi]

I'm not wanting to start a whole pro/con cycle helmet argument, I was just stating that from my perspective it seems odd to see people not wearing them.

I understand in countries where many cycle there is a lot more awareness of them it may not be such an issue, where as back home most people drive due to lack of decent public transport and many living in rural areas so it tends to be kids who cycle, generally to and from school, then once people turn 16 they get a license and a car.

I remember when I was at school helmets were not compulsory and were considered 'uncool' once they became law it was the norm and no one thought twice about it, also because there is a well known cycle helmet campaigner who tours schools with her son who was severely brain damaged in a cycle accident to convince kids to wear a helmet and what can happen if you don't, it may seem a bit harsh but I remember it having a big impact on myself and my friends. People certainly didn?t suddenly stop cycling because of the helmet rule, if people really don't want to wear one they just don't and risk getting fined.

Personally I see it a bit like wearing a seatbelt, it may not stop you being badly injured or killed in a crash but you have nothing to lose by wearing it.

Having said all that I agree that it's only part of the issue, teaching proper road safety and making drivers more cyclist aware is a big part of it too.

[reetpetite]

No no no way should children of 5 be on the road on bikes helmet or no helmet its totally irresponsible and so so dangerous.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Whaaaaat? Why is it dangerous. It's not because they are young and it's not because they are on bikes

if cars are the danger then the warning should be directed elsewhere

[reetpetite]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Whaaaaat? Why is it dangerous. It's not because

> they are young and it's not because they are on

> bikes

Of course it is far too young at that age they are so easily distracted and unpredictable.I would never have took my son onthe road at that age .

[Emily]

I think it's just awful to scream abuse at families in the street.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

There is research (somewhere, cue Hugenot) which suggests that children under 12 cannot judge car speeds properly, which means children crossing roads and/or cycling on roads are at a disadvantage.

When my daughter began cycling on roads (after the superb free course from Southwark), I researched helmet pros and cons. I came down on the side of no helmet for various reasons, including the fact that those who wear helmets and high vis jackets seem to think that they are invincible.

[Asset]

It is illegal for anyone of any age to cycle on the pavement. There is FREE cycle training available to teach people of all ages to cycle on the roads as safely as possible.

The more families out like that cycling the fewer accidents and deaths there will be. That is a statistical fact.

There are many cons for wearing helmets (unless cycling off road). I think the research comes out around 50/50 for and against.

Selfish car driver strikes again shouting abuse at legal road users.

[reetpetite]

It may be illigal but technically children under 16 cannot be prosecuted for doing so. Adults however can be.

[SeanMacGabhann]

There are pros and cons to wearing helmets, and I don't want to dismiss EdKiwi's points too readily

But the main con is, simply put, the difference between feeling alive and feeling over-protected. There is no way riding a bike with a helmet is anywhere near as exhilarating as without. And if stats proved absolutely the effectiveness of helmets I would still like to be able to choose to wear one or not

One of the things I hated most on my 3 weeks in Australia was the compulsory helmet rule

As for too young, I was riding bikes, without my parents constant supervision at that age(ish). And this is on the main road between Cork and Waterford. The woman in the original post sounds like she was doing ok to me. Those kids will grow up with good road sense

Any driver observing the road can see ahead and react accordingly if children are cycling. If they are irresponsible drivers and liable to kill someone anyway through reckless driving, it's moot wether the victim was a young cyclist or an OAP crossing the road

[EDKiwi]

Asset Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The more families out like that cycling the fewer

> accidents and deaths there will be. That is a

> statistical fact.

>

> There are many cons for wearing helmets (unless

> cycling off road). I think the research comes out

> around 50/50 for and against.

Personally the thought of what happens if you come off a bike and smash your head on the road without a helmet makes me cringe, but I totally agree there are plenty of pros and cons, and teaching your kids how to cycle safely and to be aware of the dangers on the roads is far more important. There are plenty of bad cyclist and bad drivers out there as it is.

[jollybaby]

Whilst I may not agree with her tone I'd have to say I'm more with Morag on this one. I've come across some god awful driving around the back streets of ED and putting a little one who can barely see over the top of a parked car- sounds a little dangerous to me. I feel the same when I see people towing children in the little carriages behind their bikes.

[Marmora Man]

Freedom Freedom Freedom. The parents made a choice - they are, presumably, enthusiastic cyclists and probably quite experienced (you don't invest in all those bikes on a whim - so it makes me feel the parents are regular cyclists).

The balance of this thread is to criticise parents for encouraging cycling, healthy exercise and time out with their children. I am sure they didn't carry out a careful risk assessment, and nor should they, they probably just thought "let's get on our bikes and go out".

Bully for them.

[northlondoner]

Marmora Man Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Freedom Freedom Freedom. The parents made a choice

> - they are, presumably, enthusiastic cyclists and

> probably quite experienced (you don't invest in

> all those bikes on a whim - so it makes me feel

> the parents are regular cyclists).

>

> The balance of this thread is to criticise parents

> for encouraging cycling, healthy exercise and time

> out with their children. I am sure they didn't

> carry out a careful risk assessment, and nor

> should they, they probably just thought "let's get

> on our bikes and go out".

>

> Bully for them.

Jogging is a healthy and fun way for famlies to keeping fit and bond. More of us should be running in the roads with our toddlers.

[northlondoner]

But seriously, if a well timed yell jogs some feckless middle class mum into getting her head out of the clouds and start acting more responsibly - so be it. I just have this vision of her smiling to herself and thinking "oooh, we're so green" as her kids cycle under the wheel of a passing car. Well done Morag.

[DeptfordDiva]

I've recently had to drive through East Dulwich quite a lot and i have to say, there seem to be tons of cyclists (not toddlers admittedly) on the road, as far as i'm concerned they are a menace!! They ride along in the middle of the road and cause motorists to swerve quite far out to avoid them. Motorists get the blame for accidents involving bikes - unjustly in my opinion.

[Andystar]

My lovely ex-flatmate was hit by a 4x4 last year, I took her to hospital & she was there for 2 days. I dread to think what could have happened if she cycled without her helmet.