Is Kettling A Legitimate Police Tactic ?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Solicitors acting on behalf of protesters caught up in clashes at the G20 demonstrations will launch a legal challenge tomorrow.

Experts will bring a judicial review of police tactics such as "kettling" to contain people and the excessive use of force.

Activists who staged the Bishopsgate climate camp want an explanation of how the Metropolitan Police handled the controversial City of London events in April.

They have also demanded that senior officers provide a legal basis for the practice of containing protesters in one place for extended periods of time.

So is kettling a legitimate police tactic?

[bigbadwolf]

This thread will still be discussed long into next month. Sherwick, Sean, David Carnell, Atila, Tony...on your marks...get set...rant.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

BBW you do the aforementioned the utmost disservice there will be little ranting on this thread.

Trust me, I'm a Bookie....B)

p.s. Can't guarantee the same for The Lady Thatcher thread that I'm about to initiate.....wacko..:))

[bigbadwolf]

Fair enough Tony.

This thread will be discussed long in to next month. Sherwick, Sean, David Carnell, Atila, Tony...on your marks...get set...provoke.

It's nothing personal Tony but you do insist on initiating threads that tend to grag on and cause a lot of resentment.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

bigbadwolf Wrote:

It's nothing personal Tony but you do insist on initiating threads that tend to grag on and cause a lot of resentment.

The usual protagionists are more than capable on taking any criticism on the chin and not being too precious about it, one trusts...

Just a healthy debate...lets hope this one doesn't grag on bbw...

btw: Is "grag on" like "jog on"??...:)

[david_carnell]

I was personally subjected to "kettling" in May 2001 when I attended the May Day protests as an interested observer. The politics of the SWP and similar aren't my thing but I was young, naive and wanted to see what the fuss was all about.

At the end of the march, upon entering Oxford Circus, the crowd were prevented from going any further and then the police came from behind to seal off any route out. The tube station was closed off too.

I had seen no violence and little anti-social behavior that day but there had been trouble in previous years. It was a fairly grim experience that seemed to serve little purpose other than to antagonize a previously peaceful crowd. After an hour people were grumpy. After two we were angry. After three we were anxious. Some had families elsewhere. Some needed bathrooms or water, none of which was provided. As it began to get dark and cold, small trickles of people were let through the police cordens and after a seemingly interminable amount of time I eventually was released.

All of this is only my experiences and therefore come with the pros and cons associated with 1st-hand sources.

Whilst I can appreciate the need for such tactics with violent crowds intent on rioting (football hooligans for eg) when used on peaceful crowds it seems counter-productive. Media coverage was biased against the protesters in their depictions of confrontation compared to my experiences and my belief in the rationale of the Met took a significant downturn. But it is low down on the tactics used by some of our European counterparts. I never wish to be on the receiving end of tear gas, a water cannon or a police truncheon. But this does not make it correct.

Lastly it seems to infringe some basic rights which I believe should only be impeded in the most desperate of situations:

- the right to protest

- freedom of assembly

- freedom of movement

I would not call "kettling" illegitimate but I would counsel that it should only be used in extraordinary situations.

[woofmarkthedog]

I prefer a "low simmer" with the lid cocked ...

[Michael Palaeologus]

No. The Police are taking the law into their own hands. Thats not their job.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

david_carnell Wrote:

All of this is only my experiences and therefore come with the pros and cons associated with 1st-hand sources.

Now we will have to temporarily shelve our "entente cordiale" to disagree on this.

Many times you have disparaged individual "anecdotal" evidence or "examples".

I'm of the belief, however, that if enough people all pretty much feel/say/think the same thing over a given topic then there is more than a semblance of creedence to it, while you have, I'm sure you'll agree, been very dismissive of individual anecdotes to illustrate or proove a point over a given situation.

So at this early juncture I'm afraid we need more, much more, to decide whether "kettling" is or is not legitimate dave...

[Michael Palaeologus]

No we dont. Peaceful street protest is legitimate and democratic. Attempts to deny this is in not legitimate or democratic.

I have a commercial interest in David Carnelli's bladder and am concerned about any situation where it may be damaged.

[david_carnell]

I'm not sure you understood me Tony.

The first half of my post illustrated my particular experience and I hold my hands up to accusations that it is biased for that same reason,

The second half, I hope, a more reasoned analysis of why I think that, in general, it is not a legitimate tactic in all but the most extreme cases.

I'm fully aware of the fallibilities of anecdotal evidence - hence my natural distrust of them in your arguments. I just thought it might provide some interest rather than a firm argument.

I'm presuming you are in favour? Why?

[bigbadwolf]

I've never been subjected to 'kettling' but I have been subjected to a dose of CS and a baton to the back of the knee for being a complete twit in the face of the law. I thoroughly deserved it.....and went down like a sack of spuds.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

david_carnell Wrote:

I'm presuming you are in favour? Why?

You assume far too much david..

It may be masochistic "fun", initially, to be pushed, threatened, terrifed and penned by police "just doing their job"? for some but when you add being smacked over the head by a truncheon wielding horse riding officer of le law,leading to fear, frustration and ultimately, potential violence as some have said, then, on balance, I'm not in favour......

[Huguenot]

I'm not sure what you're talking about now TLS.

You asked whether kettling was legitimate, but now you're describing it as "being smacked over the head by a truncheon wielding horse riding officer of le law"

What are you asking about, kettling or police violence?

The fact that the two may occasionally happen concurrently is no reason to conflate them, as otherwise you'd ban football because of hooligans.

Police violence is unacceptable in normal cirumstances, but as with us all they are entitled to a proportionate response to crimes committed against them.

Kettling is legitimate in the sense of being within the law, but may (as MP and DC point out) be a moral transgression. Kettling is not dissimilar to 'stop and search', since both entail the persecution of the many to curtail the activities of few.

I'm interested in whether those who agree with the expansion of 'stop and search' are also those who disagree with kettling? It would be an inconsistent approach.

[SteveT]

bigbadwolf wrote:- I have been subjected to a dose of CS and a baton to the back of the knee for being a complete twit in the face of the law.

What precisely did you do wolfcub to deserve it? or are you too ashamed to tell.....full of guilt huh

It has to be something super humdinger haymaker twittish, to deserve such punishment in my opinion, like selling newspapers, or going to work as a Brazilian electrician, or if your other name is Blair Peach.

Was it as super twittish as those little incidents?

[Huguenot]

Well absolutely SteveT, but you're doing what everyone does in these debates, which is to take isolated incidents and try and make them commonplace. You're trying to characterise the police as a ravening mob, which is unfair.

Our newspaper salesman was victim to a spiteful idiot who'd grown frustrated with other idiots but certainly did not intend to murder anyone.

Our Brazilian electrician was victim to dedicated and resourceful services who were misinformed and had poor systems in place in response to a national panic.

Blair Peach was the victim of a lawless society that involved a three way riot between Anti-Nazi's, the BNP and a police group modelled on the Stasi but since disbanded.

If BBW had made a policeman fear for his own safety then CS gas and a baton to the knees would indeed have been a proportionate response. We should let him be the judge of that - and he seems pretty comfortable with his opinion.

I should add that in the last forty years almost 400 UK policemen have been killed for taking up the profession.

[poppylucky]

One thing we do know and that is that the Police are not held to account when things go wrong. Its all well saying how many officers have died on duty,but you can balance that with how many people have died in police custody, under questionable circumstances..... and no-one yet has been prosecuted or taken to account for these suspicious deaths. Jean Charles Menezes was a glaringly obvious point, where no-one was deemed responsible for his innocent death, including the Police Commander who gave the order to shoot him, or the Officers that pulled the trigger, or the Intelligence services..... It makes you wonder if we live in a blameless society now, where no-one takes responsibility.

Police Officers take on the responsibility of enforcing the law, in some situations they are putting themselves at risk - thats why they are highly paid and they know the risks involved, so its a personal choice.

As for kettling, it is a text book tactic that Law enforcement agencies use across the world to 'contain' demonstrators in a specific area so 'civil disobedience' does'nt spread further, it works and i don't think the police are going to abandon it altogether, no-one is saying they have an easy job, they don't.But i think there is a few elements of the police force that are corrupt, unaccountable and unnecessary in this day and age,they are the ones that should be rooted out and thrown out, to make the police more representative of society would also be a good idea, more women and people of other cultures encouraged also. They should also be made to attend charm school....!

Hopefully we will reach some sort of a balance and the G20 protests will be some sort of a water shed in Police relations (they did say the same after the Stephen Lawrence enquiry....). But i sadly see this dragging on for a long while yet.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

I'm not sure what you're talking about now TLS. You asked whether kettling was legitimate, but now you're describing it as "being smacked over the head by a truncheon wielding horse riding officer of le law" What are you asking about, kettling or police violence?

Just that Kettling and its containing policy enables the Police more opportunity for nefarious activities, if they so desire.

Police violence is unacceptable in normal cirumstances, but as with us all they are entitled to a proportionate response to crimes committed against them.

Indeed they are,and seemingly conversely to the above, if they do give the odd accused a dig or two or a smack in the Police Cells a la "Ashes To Ashes" then, eh, "alls fair in love and the law"...B)

[Huguenot]

Well, you'd have to talk to Jimmy Two Times about that... ;-)

[Brendan]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Police violence is unacceptable in normal

> cirumstances, but as with us all they are entitled

> to a proportionate response to crimes committed

> against them.

Crimes are not committed against the police. A crime is something committed against society. The police are society?s representatives.

Civil disobedience is not a crime. In many situations it is not just a right but our responsibility as decent members of society to voice our objection.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Brendan Wrote:

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote: Police violence is unacceptable in normal cirumstances, but as with us all they are entitled

to a proportionate response to crimes committed against them. Crimes are not committed against the police. A crime is something committed against society. The police are society?s representatives.

Me?? I thought you wrote that...I'll go and check it out...

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Quote:

huguenot

Police violence is unacceptable in normal cirumstances, but as with us all they are entitled to a proportionate response to crimes committed against them.

I should have known it was that "Agent Provoceteur" Huguenot, not either of us, Brendan...

[Huguenot]

That was me.

I just meant that policing does involve the apprehension of criminals who don't come quietly.

Whilst clearly I don't condone violence from the police, you can't expect them to be both interventionist and to come over all Mahatma Gandhi.

[bigbadwolf]

SteveT Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> bigbadwolf wrote:- I have been subjected to a

> dose of CS and a baton to the back of the knee for

> being a complete twit in the face of the law.

>

>

> What precisely did you do wolfcub to deserve it?

> or are you too ashamed to tell.....full of guilt

> huh

>

>

>

> It has to be something super humdinger haymaker

> twittish, to deserve such punishment in my

> opinion, like selling newspapers, or going to work

> as a Brazilian electrician, or if your other name

> is Blair Peach.

>

> Was it as super twittish as those little

> incidents?

It was because me and some friends took one of my mates little brothers who'd just turned 18 for his first legal skinful in Lewisham. We stopped off in the Coach and Horses where he left his passport on the table. Some little traveller kid nicked the passport off the table and made for the door. We grabbed the little git on the pavement and start going through his pockets. Guess who pulls up in a car with it's Irish number plate hanging by one screw, the whole clan. Fight ensues, Police called, much cocaine his been snorted, chests puffed out, mass brawl, arrest resisted, gas in the face baton to the knee.

Conclusion.

I deserved everything I got and looked even stupider for all my efforts and couldn't walk properly for a week. My advice is to stand still and co-operate.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

bigbadwolf Wrote:

Some little traveller kid nicked the passport off the table and made for the door. We grabbed the little git on the pavement and start going through his pockets. Guess who pulls up in a car with it's Irish number plate hanging by one

> screw, the whole clan. Fight ensues, Police called, much cocaine his been snorted, chests puffed out, mass brawl, arrest resisted, gas in the face baton to the knee. Conclusion. I deserved everything I got and looked even stupider for all my efforts and couldn't walk properly for a week. My advice is to stand still and co-operate.

So much for your conclusion about getting involved with any travelling "clan" bbw, now what is your conclusion about getting involved with The Police. ?? B)