Lordship Lane incident

[ClareC]

The Ben Kinsella case started off in a bar, bar's are notorious for being places where trouble can start albeit Ben was not involved in the trouble itself and chose to leave as a result.

To be stood in the street early afternoon you would hope it was less likely that people not involved in anything untoward would not be randomly stabbed.

[jaybee82]

People get attacked all the time for no reason...Jimmy Mizen? He was minding his own business in a bakery! Bit of a daft thing to say Beard.

[northlondoner]

Beard - where are your does this rant about the "typical" person involved in this kind of thing? The telly? The papers? That call-in show on LBC? Your mate who knows someone who's a social worker?

Your call for mass stop and search of "youths" is misguided. I would argue that its indiscriminate application (which ALREADY happens) does not help matters - in fact it is counter productive. We need more intelligence led action. I would suggest that the situation is so serious we should be adopting the kind of thinking employed in major criminal -or even counter terror investigations ie aggressive intelligence gathering followed by targetted action, including stop and search.

But the mass use of random stop and search, based on some kind of profilng, just pisses people off and makes them far less likely to cooperate with the police or indeed any authority figure. Just at a time when we need all the help we can get in cracking down on violent crime.

Picture this - it's you, your son, your sister's son or your neighbour's son being stopped and searched in public by the police every other week. I have seen the anger it causes at first hand - and believe me its not pretty. That line about "if they've got nothing to hide" only works for the first couple of times they are stopped. After that bitterness sets in. I have seen this explosive anger at first hand and its not pretty - and it augers ill for any future cooperation with the police. What happened on LL is not pretty either. But stopping people at random - based on lazy, half thought out assumptions - is not the answer.

It leaves us all more vulnerable to the spread of crime by alienating the very people who can help us tackle it.

[jimmy two times]

Stop and search is necessary to protect the public. If youths insist on carrying blades then that is the consequence.

[ClareC]

Scary they carry them, more scary they are happy to use them!

[TJS]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/8108412.stm

[Keef]

I find it very hard to believe someone would be attacked if they were just minding their own business.

Already been addressed by cate and Jeremy, but just felt I had to jump in here and ask.

Seriously?????

[Moos]

I'm so glad no-one was killed, poor kids. Hope they recover quickly.

[thebeard]

There will always be exceptions where the innocent get hurt.

But

In the great majority of these stabbing cases there are no innocent parties.

The reasons for these stabbings are MONEY from DRUGS and Gang location DISRESPECT and other such nonsense.

The Police are not going to get any intelligence out of the 10-16 year old boys and girls who used by older men as drug money and knife carriers.

I doubt they would be able to infiltrate a 10-year-old police officer and gain such intelligence.

I saw over ten Police stop and question and search in one single day in PARIS in and off the Metro this makes me wonder what it is we have to do here in London before the Police are able to do the job we pay them to do!

If you are so NA?VE to think leaving things as they are? because you are worried about upsetting these youth?s by stopping and searching them? then YOU ARE A FOOL!

This problem will NOT go away it will NOT disappear.

This is the start of what could become a far bigger problem for all of us in the future when these IDIOTS get into their 20s who will become the prey?

I have heard lots of the kids carrying knives are too young to be stop and searched HOW can that be?

The majority of members on this site myself included have little understanding.

We live in some sort of parallel life and have little understanding or knowledge of what makes these people tick.

If the movie Train Spotting was an eye opener, we probably haven?t a clue about what is going on down the road or next door to us or more so on the local council estate.

All you WELL meaning LIBERALS are by proxy allowing knives to be carried and use on our streets and you are as responsible for the deaths of these people as those using the knives.

You make me SICK to my Stomach.

[citizenED]

Great post, Northlondoner. I pretty much agree with everything you say.

[Keef]

We live in some sort of parallel life and have little understanding or knowledge of what makes these people tick.

What people, the SE London kids who carry knives? In the 90s I was a SE London school kid, and knew these "people", some of them were even friends.

I think you are talking absolute garbage, and trying to make something huge and sinister out of something that is really just quite sad.

Yes there will be exceptions, but most of these kids will get in to their 20s, and just grow up and realise how stupid they were being.

Sorry if you think I am a LIBERAL, and I make you SICK, but have a bloody word with yourself!

[thebeard]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think you are talking absolute garbage, and

> trying to make something huge and sinister out of

> something that is really just quite sad.

>

OK I?ve had a WORD !

And got this back ?????..

Kids are being killed on our streets and apparently innocent bystanders are also.

Word ???

We spend hundreds of millions to stop road deaths yet we just say how

Word ???

When knife carrying outrageous behaviour results in a death every few days.

Oh YEA

It?s

Word ???

THE ONE WORD I?ll NOT be saying for That Word ??? is

? sad ??

Far to wet and weak for what is happening????

[sillywoman]

thebeard Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Far to wet and weak for what is happening????

"too" not "to",

sorry, sorry, I just came over all grammatical. I'll go away and do some tutting over The Guardian now . . . . .

[aicardo]

A very healthy, although unfortunate, debate indeed.

Worth making a distinction between inter gang related violence and violent mugging/assualt. Often an individual can commit both acts but yesterday seems to be the former?

I'm a mancunian exile, in Moss Side / Whalley Range, it's all a similar story, while gangs jossle for control and respect it will always spill on to the streets. Yesterday was no big deal in the greater context but still disturbing for those of us who see ED as a safer Sarf London borough.

Like in Moss Side, the met police let these guys fight between themselves, their gang heirachy will naturally sort itself out while the police focus on people higher up the chain who instigate the turf war. Unfortuantely the turf has got bigger and more visible (Barry Road / Lordship Lane). One big gangster arrest often sorts it out for a few years before it comes back again. Gooch gang leader arrested

My personal view is that we're reaching a critical tension between a rise in gang violence and growing discontentment among the working/middle classes, when is the tipping point?

Sorry But I have little pity for the boys that got stabbed, boys or not, they know what they're getting into... they've seen the stories and campaigns in newspapers and on TV.

[Keef]

Okay, not sad, what would you call it? Do you really think that stopping a few kids and taking a few knives off them will stop anything, I mean really really? Treat the cause not the effect. Oh, and your use of "Word" is quite street, respek yourself!

[Moos]

aicardo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry But I have little pity for the boys that got

> stabbed, boys or not, they know what they're

> getting into... they've seen the stories and

> campaigns in newspapers and on TV.

But aircardo we don't know whether the people stabbed were in gangs or were carrying knives themselves. What makes you assume that they were? It's perfectly possible, I agree - but it's also perfectly possible that they were quite innocent.

[KidKruger]

My Dad's bigger than your Dad, ner ner, ner ner ner..

[jimmy two times]

I think the gang thing is overblown. How does one define a gang? In theory any 4 lads together could be classified as a 'gang'. Young men carrying knives is nothing new. Back in the fifties and sixties the fashionable weapon of choice was a cuth-throat razor which assailants used to 'slash' faces. In the seventies and eighties it was Stanley knives. I'm not sure why the so-called well meaning Liberals are to blame for letting this happen? The only people responsible are the knife wielders. No one has forced them to carry and use a knife no matter what hardships they've suffered in their upbringing. The justice dished out to them should be suitably harsh.

[SCSB79]

I think if we had more people in power that actually had the balls to speak and think like the beard we'd be in a far safer world.

[citizenED]

No, if the likes of theBeard were in power we'd be in a far more dangerous and scary place. He sees the world in terms of them and us, when the world is actually a many-faceted place.

[????]

As I've said before, football hooliganism was virtually eliminated by highly illiberal police tactics, the adoption ofview that any young male football supporter was a hooligan and legislative harshness on sentencing....

....doesn't mean that's the best approach to knife crime but shouldn't be forgotten however uncomfortable the Guardian is with that. I'm wary of stats but hasn't there been a decline in knife crime since the police increased stop and search? (I don't know I'm asking - go to it Hugenot) and I know that there's been a fall in knife deaths (but statitstically the samples are so small it 'probably' doesn't show us much). I don't know the answers but surely there has to be some 'stick'?

[littleEDfamily]

Incidents like this are both sad and sinister. My sense about the source of at least some of such violence (and yes I do lead a 'parallel life' as one poster put it, so my understanding is somewhat superficial) is the much bandied about 'breakdown of values' and lack of positive males role models (especially direct family members).

It may sound snobby and middle aged, but the feeling I get about a lot of London teenagers (not all - and I really empathise with the nice kids growing up in this city) is that they just don't seem to have been brought up with the kind of consideration for others that prevailed in previous generations and the resultant behaviour in public ranges from just anti-social (eg playing loud music on bus) to downright terrifying and deliberately intimidating. I realise that the factors leading to that sort of mentality are complex, but I cannot believe that the kind of permissive and fragmented society we seem to have drifted into will bring anything other than an increasing frequency of indidents like these. Interesting point aicardo raised about whether there will be a 'tipping point' - I'm not overly optimistic. Unfortunately, I can see London 'underclasses' continuing to grow - and by that I mean socially disadvantaged individuals who are not able to integrate effectively with minstream society - and the associated problems with crime continuing for quite some time. Those who have the means to remove themselves from what they perceive to be a threatening environment will move out of London (as may already do when their kids become teenagers) or emigrate.

By the way, I am not making any assumptions about this particular incident, and the profiles or backgrounds of those involved - just commenting more generally.

And for the record, I have no issue with widespread stop and search techniques. Those who are likely to be provoked by being searched most likely already have a very negative attitude towards law enforcement, so I cannot see it exaccerbating what is likely to already be a profound issue those indivuals have with conformity and authority. What it does do is provide some degree of consequence for those who choose to carry weapons, and remove, even if only only temporarily, the means by which they could take a life - innocent or otherwise.

[Otto]

I just ran into my neighbor from an adjacent street who was a partial witness - very shook up. He said

"I've lived here 25 years and I've never seen anything like that".

[david_carnell]

This is the most recent statistical report I can find, from the Indy.

A summary:

The figures show that, since the operation [see below] started in May 2008, the number of youths suffering serious stabbing injuries in London has fallen by 30 per cent, from 221 to 155, while overall knife crime, which includes any offence where a blade has been used, has fallen by 11.5 per cent ? from 13,874 incidents to 12,279. Youth victims of violence have also fallen by 9.8 per cent. And, while knife-related youth murders stood at 14 this time last year, eight people under the age of 19 have been killed with a knife so far this year.

Operation Blunt 2 begun last year after the number of young people being murdered in the capital increased, with the favoured weapon being a knife. The operation widened the already operational Blunt and involved the use of random stop and search tactics and knife arches at Tube and train stations.

As there has been discussion on community relations regarding stop and search, from the same article:

Acting Deputy Commissioner Tim Godwin said that the use of stop and search tactics in non-terrorism operations had increased by 40 per cent and admitted that it can be contentious. "If you are being stopped 10 times or five times you are going to get fed up," he said.

"Every now and again the community will challenge us and that is where we have to be able to argue the reasons for doing it and generally we get support. We have maintained community support in a very sensitive area. It is not about harassing young people. It is about making a hostile environment for people carrying knives and getting weapons off the street.

And in response, someone on 'the ground':

Camila Batmanghelidjh, founder of the youth charity Kids Company, added: "I am not saying these figures are not to be believed, but I would not consider them an absolute presentation of the whole picture. I know from working at street level that a vast number of stabbings never get reported to the police. The real figures rest in hospital accident and emergency figures.

"But, considering the intensity of stop and search and random knife arches, it shows that if you put the work in you can bring your figures down. I do think that stop and search and knife arches do make young people think twice about carrying a knife. If the police consider it progress then that is good enough for me. Any progress is good."

[ClareC]

Shoot me down but I think Police should have more power to stop and search! I would have no issue being stopped and searched.....I have nothing to hide!

I can understand it could get irrtating if it keeps happening but if that means we get rid of the gun and knife crime then it has to be worth it!