63 bus terminus

[Peckwich]

Why in the last 2 weeks has the 63 buses been changing it's southbound terminal destination unexpectedly? First couple of times I thought I'd imagined seeing Honor Oak on the board. Today I checked to make sure before I got on then the driver kicked us all off at Peckham Rye.

[EDKiwi]

With my limited inside knowledge on the subject, as far as I know it usually happens when buses start getting too close together/bunched up, the controllers at the bus garages will tell a bus to change where it terminates and turn around or wait a bit to even out the spread of buses.

...still very annoying, especially if you're using pre-pay...grrrr

[Peckwich]

Oh, you're probably right. There were three 63's in a row trundling along most of the way home which is a rare sight during rush hour, especially as 2 of them were near empty (doubly rare). Just seemed a bit strange that it hasn't happened in the 7 or so months I've been doing this commute (apart from snow day) and all of a sudden 3 times in 2 weeks...I thought it was a ploy to get us prepayers to cough up more. Driver wouldn't give me a transfer either and the 363 in front was packed. Nice lady driver on the next bus believed me though.

[EDKiwi]

Yeah I would like to know what the official word is about transferring to another bus if you get kicked off early, it seems wrong that you should have to pay twice. Back in my home town in NZ the buses let you transfer to as many buses you like within a half hour, which I think is a great idea, but will probably be too detrimental to their prepay income to introduce something similar here.

[lenk]

Last time I got it the other way it bailed at E+C roundabout as well. Annoying... and usually happens without warning.

[Applespider]

EDKiwi - if you end up on a bus that changes its destination, ask the driver to give you a transfer ticket that you show the next bus to come along so don't have to use your pre-pay again. Saw a 176 driver handing them out on Saturday when he was told to stop at the Plough unexpectedly.

[EDKiwi]

Ah thanks for that Applespider, I didn't know that, will keep it in mind though :)

[reetpetite]

I was on a 484 near Bockley when a fight broke out between some youths and we had to get off the bus. Luckily another one was right behind but the driver of the second bus wouldnt let us on without paying without the say so of the other driver, even though the police were there straight away and it was obvious there was a problem and the first driver wouldnt come out of his cab (which they have a right to do).He wouldnt move till everyone paid.

[Burbage]

Amidst the political flim-flam of the past few of weeks, the deeply unfashionable Liberal Democrats chose to kick off a campaign for one-hour bus tickets aimed at solving premature ejection problems. (BBC article)

Boris, however, considers the idea far too complicated and expensive and, he reckons, it'll only benefit a minority.

Which probably gives the lie to the whole business. London buses take over half a billion quid in subsidy, and even then they only keep the service running (when it's not snowing) by shafting the few poor souls who have to pay full-price for their own tickets. An ageing population and rising birth-rate are already adding to the free-ride brigade and, over the next couple of years, hordes of unemployed and/or bankrupts will be qualifying for concessions. If there's one thing TfL won't be doing, it's finding ways of reducing their existing revenue.

That may change in future, so I wouldn't rule it out entirely (the 'misery tourism' that's transformed some northern cities could work wonders in the home of Dickensian squalor, and the grim spectacle of the Stratford Footraces will be an ideal opportunity to experiment with differential pricing), but in the meantime I doubt Boris will be persuaded.

[JohnL]

Happens on the P12 at South Bermondsey every day (depends on what bus you catch - but it says Surrey Quays at Peckham)

I just refuse to pay the next bus if I'm on PAYG - they must be used to it on that route as they never insist.

[Marmora Man]

Amidst the political flim-flam of the past few of weeks, the deeply unfashionable Liberal Democrats chose to kick off a campaign for one-hour bus tickets aimed at solving premature ejection problems.

How would this work. The majority of bus users these days carry an Oyster Card. The card reader on a bus deducts the cost of the trip - which can be from origin to terminus of from one stop to another - depending on user needs. There are few bus journey's in London that take over an hour - Forest Hill to KIngs Cross at peak time is usually less than 50 minutes.

To run a one hour ticket every oyster reader and oyster card would have to be changed to register time of starting the journey, carry out a calculation and determine how much time was left. What happens if you have used up 59 minutes and get on another bus? Do you get one free minute and then have to pay again in some fashion. I think TfL and Boris were right to call it complex and costly with little to recommend it.

If I might presume it smacks of many Lib Dem policies - great initial thought but low on detailed thinking. Rather like the Lib Dem local income tax. Great in Kensington and Chelsea where the vast majority earn well over the median wage. Not so good in Peckham and Camnberwell where the reverse applies. With this policy wealthy neighbourhoods can afford weekly bin emptying, free bus passes, street cleaning - less wealthy with lower incomes, what do they do?

[Jeremy]

It is grossly unfair that you have to pay twice because the driver (or operator) decides to stop prematurely.

It is also unfair that you have to pay twice if you need to change buses... it's not your fault that a direct route is not available.

The lib dems proposal sounds reasonable to me.

[Burbage]

With respect, Mr Marmora Man, stuff and nonsense.

Timed tickets work nicely in many places - and do here to some extent, in that travelcards are doomed to expire in the small hours and usually do so. Oyster card readers register the date and time of boarding, and the bus you get on, and they deduct a fixed fare on boarding a bus, irrespective of where you get off, or where you hope to be going.

The technical problem is not in the calculations, but that the buses don't upload the data in real time (they're uploaded in bulk at the end of the run), so anything time-dependent won't work. However, the main Oyster system does have a price-capping system (so PAYG bus users never pay more than for a one-day bus pass) which should cope with this issue very easily. Paper tickets, which have the date and time printed on them already, shouldn't pose any problems at all.

Anyhow, as Jeremy points out, the unfairness remains. If you travel by tube or train ticket, you can change as often as you need to to get from point A to point B for a single fare. On the buses, you have to pay again each time you change. For ED residents on PAYG, taking the bus to Oval costs twice as much as taking the bus to TCR.

On balance I'm more than a little suspicious of Boris' response. Equally, there seems little evidence that those on PAYG are disproportionately stung, and, in any case TfL does concessions for those that need them. But I'd also bitterly resent having to pay twice as much to visit Vauxhall as the Elephant.

[beaver14uk]

To clarify if a bus is turned short of its destination usually as a result of late running - and it order to regulate the service for example if late and a 63 ran to Honor Oak it would be due to be heading back to Kings Cross so sending it to Honor Oak would make it later - cutailing at Peckham closes a gap in service so it it designed to help you the passengers. I realise that it can be frustrating to passengers but as has been commented on here a driver should issue a transfer ticket which is handed to the driver of a route going in the same direction (doesn't have to be the same route number) and pre-pay ticket holders do not touch in on the next bus. I would point out that if you board a bus and you have not read the destination as showing Peckham the responsibility is on you to pay again. If the bus gets curtailed mid-route its clearly not your fault as a passenger and you will not have to pay again. As a driver its not the best of systems I must admit but I hope this clarifies the position. By the way this is on all TfL routes so as someone mentioned it didn't happen on the P12 then the driver was not following the correct procedure.

[Jeremy]

beaver14uk... fair points, but I have been on buses where they did not go as far as the displayed destination, and no "transfer ticket" has been offered. Instead, the driver ignored a load of angry passengers, then drove off at full tilt. Although I'm sure this type of thing happens rarely, it is nevertheless a reality and a flaw in the system.

[betsy555]

hi this happens to me an awful lot on my daily commute , you can demand a ticket from the driver so u can use on your next part of the journey....i would never ppay twice , and if they get funny get their number and complain . they have to give it to you .

harriet

[Peckwich]

I think the problem with this system is that when you have doubts in your mind as to what the sign said when you got on the bus you'd rather touch in and pay up on the next bus than make a fuss to the driver and be told you are wrong. On the second occasion, I did neither as it was nice and sunny, I walked the rest of the way (but could I have really misread Peckham Rye as Honor Oak? Oh, the mystery).

[Peckwich]

Peckwich Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think the problem with this system is that when

> you have doubts in your mind as to what the sign

> said when you got on the bus you'd rather touch in

> and pay up on the next bus than make a fuss to the

> driver and be told you are wrong. On the second

> occasion, I did neither as it was nice and sunny,

> I walked the rest of the way (but could I have

> really misread Peckham Rye as Honor Oak? Oh, the

> mystery).

Whoops, I took so long to decide what to type that 2 people posted messages before me. This was in response to beaver's post.