Daily Mail readers show their true colours

[Sherwick]

Tony, regarding immigrants integrating, maybe it just takes time to integrate. In fact, it obviously does. People entering this country for the first time often aren't going to immediately mix with the indigenous population. However, over time, either they will or their sons and daughters will.

I direct you to exhibit A, the English Cricket team, who have Owais Shah, Ravi Bopara, and Adil Rashid all playing for and supporting England.

Additionally I was watching the 20:20 yesterday with England playing the West Indies and the commentators were stating how few West Indians living in London were supporting the Windies these days, compared to the 1960s and 1970s. One then spoke about his conversation with Ian Wright (England and Arsenal footballer) where he asked Ian who he supported. Ian said "England of course!".

Over time, immigrants will integrate, but maybe not immediately.

[Mark]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

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>

> My question was though :

>

> "How do you think THEY would feel if they ... returned to Britain now and observed that ... White/Brits ...have become almost extinct ? "

>

If my Grandad, who fought in the war, came back to life now I think he would be happy that England was still a green and pleasant land although a lot busier like the rest of the world. He would be happy that there is a mixture of different "types" of people because he was killed fighting the bad guys who killed people because their beliefs, races and cultures. I don't think he would really give a shit what colour people were. He was fighting the enemy, he was not fighting to preserve the "whiteness" of Britain's saying that he was is just fucking stupid.

Then there's my other Grandad and his family who were thrown out of the Ukraine and eventually moved to England as displaced persons. As an immigrant he is very grateful to people like my other grandad who helped the world stay a great and free place, especially England where my family has worked and lived without the fear of being outcast because they weren't "white brits".

Saying white brits are becoming extinct just shows a narrow minded ignorance. What is a white brit? Am I a white brit? I'm British and I am white but I'm not going to start fighting for a corner of this country to preserve people who look like me. That's fucking stupid too.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Sherwick Wrote:

So you admit that you made it up then?

It was a guesstimate.

[Sherwick]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

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> Sherwick Wrote:

> So you admit that you made it up then?

>

> It was a guesstimate.

A guesstimate based on what?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Sherwick Wrote:

A guesstimate based on what?

In the same way as others have disagreed, thus far, based on their view and beliefs, without knowing ( or providing) the exact figures

[Mark]

Sherwick asked:

"A guesstimate based on what?"

not

"what is your excuse for not providing exact figures"

[Sherwick]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

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> Sherwick Wrote:

> A guesstimate based on what?

>

> In the same way as others have disagreed, thus

> far, based on their view and beliefs, without

> knowing ( or providing) the exact figures

So you made it up then.

[david_carnell]

Just so you don't have room for manouevre Tony - my mobile device makes providing a link to the stats difficult.

However, the wikipedia page listing WW2 casualties lists them all by nation. A casual glance allows for a quick rebuttal of your "guesstimate".

[Huggers]

The normans refused to speak anything but french for absolute yonks.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Mark Wrote:

Saying white brits are becoming extinct just shows a narrow minded ignorance. What is a white brit? Am I a white brit? I'm British and I am white but I'm not going to start fighting for a corner of this country to preserve people who look like me.

That's @#$%& stupid too.

Thanks. At least someone has given an answer.

However I have to refer to the above.

Firstly you state you are White and British so, undeniably,you are a White Brit.

As for the "narrow-minded ignorance" you referred to.

If it is "ignorance" are you denying that this is not the case in parts of The UK? if you deny this, then it is you who is the "ignorant" one here. When I travelled 20 years ago through part of Leicester every single shop/business and person I saw, in that area, was Asian. That was 20 years ago so, inevitably, the Asian feel of that area will have expanded.

It did not feel like Britain, that I grew up in at all, but like Lahore/Delhi/Calcutta etc...

Do you honestly think that the original indigenous occupiers of that area would be pleased or content that their Culture has disappearred there? HONESTLY?

There was the sad story of an indigenous White Brit in Southall who committed suicide as she got on "o.k" with the Asian women who were also Dinner Ladies at her school but said she had "nothing in common" with them and eventually she was the only White British Woman left in her street, and she committed suicide.

Shame you could have not contacted her and informed and enlightened and educated her into how "narrow-minded" she was.

To re-iterate she had nothing against The Asian people at all but said she had "nothing in common" with them.

As the area became exclusively Asian she became a stranger, CULTURALLY, in her own Country, Mark.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Sherwick Wrote:

Tony, regarding immigrants integrating, maybe it just takes time to integrate.

Of course over Centuries that will change, however USA Afro-Americans see themselves as Americans, 'tis true.

HOWEVER, most want to live in predominantly All-Black Areas, whether it be in parts of New York (Harlem, anybody?) or Chicago/Boston/LA/Philly/Washington. The story and pattern is the same.

How can you NOT realise this or ignore this.

The mexicans in LA choose to live in predominantly or exclusively Mexican Neighbourhoods.

The Black Guys in Los Angeles choose to live in predominantly or exclusively Black neighbourhoods.

Why is this do you think? Anything to do with them wanting to be with people of a similar CULTURE by any chance?

Another question for anyone here, including you Sherwick....

Ideally Students would attend Schools where all Ethnic Groups mix freely and well, We are all agreed on that.

However, why is it, when you realise that most Inner London children live in racially-mixed neighbourhoods, do the White kids, inevitably, hang out with other White kids and Ditto Black children, Vietnamese Children, Asian children, Jewish children etc....

Observe almost any Group of Secondary School children or College Students who attend racially-mixed Schools/Colleges and live in racially-mixed Neighbourhoods and you will note that the "overwhelming" majority CHOOSE to be with members of their own Culture.

So why is that?

[Mark]

I though I would dip my toe in here and get a decent discussion but no, and so sorry ... I'm out.

[Sherwick]

I completely disagree that most want to live in black, asian or mexican areas.

I'd say that most want to live in rich areas, which happen to be mostly white.

Unfortunately they cannot choose to live in the rich areas because, well, most aren't rich enough. Those that are rich enough move to the rich areas.

Do you disagree with this?

So it's very little to do with culture (other than when people initially come into a country they initially mix with their own culture).

You say it will take centuries to change - I say it will take decades - maybe as many as 9 decades but less than 1 century.

I went to school in Brent, North West London and our school was very mixed at the time (70s and 80s) but people didn't stay in their own cultural "groups" then I can definitely tell you!

May I ask you where you heard about this white girl who committed suicide?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

The supreme irony of this, of course, is that most of the respondees, probably, have few real friends from other Cultures!

Many, if not virtually all, have chosen to live in the predominantly White Area of East Dulwich and NOT Brixton/Camberwell/Peckham/Stockwell/Kennington/Walworth which are all close but much more racially diverse.

Without knowing the individual circumstances of every contributor I would strongly suspect that in their Middle-Class upbringings they experienced a predominantly White/British Mono-Culture so have NOT seen their original areas change overmuch!

Furthermore in their work environment I would strongly suspect that the vast majority of their colleagues are White Brits!

So, nearly all contributors came from predominantly, almost exclusively White Areas, have chosen to take residence in a predominantly White Area and, probably, most of their work colleagues and friends that they socialise with are also White/British.....

You will understand if I take more seriously somebody who HAS seen their area change culturally, and has chosen to have friends of all Ethnic Groups, who also chooses to live in a racially diverse area.

Its so easy to be idealistic when you are not inconvenienced in any way by any Cultural change....

Someone more like ???? who informed us that his child was the only White child in his class and he has no problem with that.

THAT, I admire.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Mark Wrote:

I though I would dip my toe in here and get a decent discussion but no, and so sorry ... I'm out.

Mark as your idea of dipping your toe in constituted the following:

Saying white brits are becoming extinct just shows a NARROW MINDED IGNORANCE. What is a white brit? Am I a white brit? I'm British and I am white but I'm not going to start fighting for a corner of this country to preserve people who look like me. That's @#$%& STUPID too.

Might I, respectfully, suggest that is not the optimum way of achieving that noble idea.:))

[Jeremy]

I really don't think it's true white British people and their culture have become almost extinct.

Sure there are pockets which are largely inhabited by certain ethnic groups, but this "herding" is human nature. It is also inevitable that this occurs in the big cities such as London, Birmingham, Manchester where there are more employment opportunities. But I think Tony is overstating the issue - I mean are there any other white people on this forum who feel as though they are in a minority? I certainly don't.

I can understand why some people may perhaps feel disillusioned about changes in their neighbourhood... I am not totally unsympathetic to Tony's point. But personally I feel that we have gained more than we have lost, through the spread of other cultures onto our shores.

The whole WWII thing is a red herring, nobody was fighting to retain white british culture, it was to stop the spread of a totalitarian dictatorship and ethnic cleansing. And I think it's a bit of a cheap shot to drag it into the debate.

[Mark]

The reason I'm out is that the other side of the discussion misquotes, injects nonsense and irrelevance into the proceedings frequently and seems to not understand the logical process of debate/question and answer. It has nothing to do with the subject, the subject is great to discuss, it just feels like trying to play tennis against a juvenile monkey, you can't get a proper rally going because they keep trying to stick the ball up their bum.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Sherwick Wrote:

I completely disagree that most want to live in black, asian or mexican areas. I'd say that most want to live in rich areas, which happen to be mostly white. Unfortunately they cannot choose to live in the rich areas because, well, most aren't rich enough. Those that are rich enough move to the rich areas.

> Do you disagree with this? So it's very little to do with culture (other than when people initially come into a country they initially mix with their own culture). You say it will take centuries to change - I say it will take decades - maybe as many as 9 decades but less than 1 century. I went to school in Brent, North West London and our school was very mixed at the time (70s and 80s) but people didn't stay in their own cultural "groups" then I can definitely tell you!

TLS: I agree with the "rich" part. I totally disagree with the rest but am visiting my lovely culturally diverse London in a few minutes so will postpone my reply until then.

Sherwick: May I ask you where you heard about this white girl who committed suicide?

Sunday, 9 March 2008 THE INDEPENDENT...

"My father worked in a greengrocers' shop for 35 years; my mother was a housewife before she committed suicide in 1987. They were both lifelong Labour voters. My mother hanged herself in the house she lived in all her life, in Southall, west London, a town that had changed beyond all recognition. It is today the least white place in the whole of Britain.

She wrote in her suicide note: "I hate Southall, I feel so alone." In case anyone dare accuse her of any racism, she may have hated Southall, but my mother was incapable of hating people. She worked in the last years of her life as a dinner lady in an all-Asian school and was much loved. But she was lost. Her world had disappeared.

CAPITAL LETTERS SHERWICK AND OTHERS so that this point FINALLY sinks in

PLEASE read every word of the above. That PERFECTLY encapsulates what I have been saying....that was in 1987 when only a few areas haad dramaticallychanged, culturally...

If you do NOT understand now, Dear Reader you either:

1/ Aren't capable

2/ Do NOT want to!!

In every readers case they are all NOW capable of understanding so it, presumably, must be "2" as it does not fit in to their marvellously idealistic view

[Tony.London Suburbs]

I FEEL SO ALONE...HER WORLD HAD DISAPPEARED......as someone said to me, on here, the other day, GEDDIT?:))

[*Bob*]

Someone killed themselves last week because they didn't think they'd do well in their exams, Tony. It doesn't mean 'exams killed them', it just mean that for a range of reasons, that can't possibly be simplified into one sentence to prove some sort of point, that person wasn't capable of dealing with exams.

Similarly the sad case you cite.

As usual, Tony, you make some salient points (even some points others don't want to make perhaps) but, as usual, there is a total incoherency and contradiction as to what you're actually trying to 'say'.

I certainly haven't got a clue what your point is.

[*Bob*]

For the record, the areas I lived in before I moved here were Tooting, Streatham and Brixton. Not once did it ever cross my mind that I somehow living in an alien world where I was increasingly in a minority.

I like it here best because it's the nicest area I've lived in, and I have a nice house in it. As Sherwick has said.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Jeremy Wrote:

I really don't think it's true white British people and their culture have become almost extinct.

Sure there are pockets which are largely inhabited by certain ethnic groups, but this "herding" is human nature. It is also inevitable that this occurs in the big cities such as London, Birmingham, Manchester where there are more employment opportunities. But I think Tony is overstating the issue - I mean are there any other white people on this forum who feel as though they are in a minority? I certainly don't.

TLS: I'm saying that their are many, many parts of Inner London, in particular, that WERE "99%" White/British only 40 years ago that have changed so much that anyone with even the most basic idea of elementary mathematics can see that if the Percentage of White Schoolchildren has gone down to 21% in Inner London from 99% in just 40 years then that process MUST escalate rapidly. I'm sure we can ALL see that, if we want to.

I travel round London a great deal and in most parts of West/North and East London the White/Brits are definitely no longer in the majority. Given that this process must continue then White/Brits WILL be the minority in "not many years to come" and then, as many of the remaining Whites will want to live amongst their own Culture, this process will acceleratestill further. It really is undeniable for anyone witnessig the difference in Inner London in 1959-1969-1979-1989-1999 until 2009.

I can understand why some people may perhaps feel disillusioned about changes in their neighbourhood... I am not totally unsympathetic to Tony's point. But personally I feel that we have gained more than we have lost, through the spread of other cultures onto our shores.

TLS:Fair enough. I never said that we haven't been enriched in many ways Jeremy.

Jeremy:The whole WWII thing is a red herring, nobody was fighting to retain white british culture, it was to stop the spread of a totalitarian dictatorship> and ethnic cleansing. And I think it's a bit of a cheap shot to drag it into the debate.

TLS: That is a very fair comment.

p.s. Jeremy. You will HAVE to improve your debating technigue though M8.

No ranting, no personal insults, no belittling you could start a trend M8....;-)

[Jeremy]

People don't commit suicide because their home town has changed. Tony, I put it to you that this person was mentally ill.

What is your proposed solution to counteract the decline of british culture, and ensure the preservation of communities?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

*Bob* Wrote:

..that can't possibly be simplified into one sentence to prove some sort of point, that person wasn't capable of dealing

with exams.

My point is that while this is an extreme example, many hundreds of thousands of other people have left London or feel isolated now in "parts" of London as they feel the Culture that they enjoyed throughout their life has been diluted and in some cases, virtually, disappearred altogether "bob"....

[Sherwick]

Someone who commits suicide obviously has problems. IN any case, if she hated Southall so much, why did she choose to live there year after year?