Daily Mail readers show their true colours

[Sherwick]

How does my mum feel about Brent? Let's put it like this - she can afford to live almost anywhere in London (or the world) but chooses to stay in Brent (which didn't have any more green spaces 40 years ago). She loves it there. She also has a house in France where she spends quite a bit of time, and she loves it over there too.

However, she, like me, thinks that people that immigrate to the UK should assimilate more into our (indigenous) culture (See my post above to DC).

[Sherwick]

Interestingly DC, I re-read your post and noticed the following: Unbounded multiculturalism... fails to recognize the values and institutions held dear by the society at large, such as those that protect women?s and gay rights.

I completely agree. And this is one major reason why I think we need more assimilation, because many of those that immigrate here do not have our liberal values that are held dear by us, e.g. women's and gay rights, democracy (of sorts!), etc.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Sherwick Wrote:

I think you're wrong. What's happened in the past 40 years may not happen in the next 40 years. I say this because I think we are heading towards all being tanned, i.e. mixed, eventually. Initially, immigrants tend to congregate together

when they come to a country, but eventually they do integrate with the indigenous population (it's a theory, but there may be evidence for this). Added to that, many white Europeans have been coming here recently. By the way, this white

flight that you speak of may well be 'WEALTH flight' - think about it.

What we need is a great big melting-pot turning out coffee-coloured people by the score.

I must write a Song with those lines in it..:) ( With apologies to Blue Mink-1968).

I'm basing my judgement on what I have witnessed since The 1960's all over London Town so we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

We'll chat again in 2049 and see who had the 20/20 vision...B)

[KalamityKel]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What we need is a great big melting-pot turning

> out coffee-coloured people by the score.

Excuse me?

[david_carnell]

Sherwick - I think the difficulty is in defining what these shared values and "indigenous culture" are.

Culture is not static. Values spring from the dialectical clash of cultures. The conflicts between working-class culture and bourgeois culture in industrial society is what gave us freedoms of speech, assembly and press, adult franchise, trade union rights, free education and the welfare state.

The welfare state itself could not have taken off without the contribution of immigrant workers from the Commonwealth. And the clash of cultures between West Indian and Asian workers on the one hand and white workers, on the other, is what freed the trade unions of their racism and threw up common values of racial justice.

Nor is culture homogeneous. A homogeneous culture, as advocated by Christian, Muslim and Hindu fundamentalists is a dead culture. Culture progresses through bastardisation. And besides you can't have had an empire (like Britain) and be homogeneous at the same time.

In Britain we should be in search of the integration that Roy Jenkins envisaged. "Not as a flattening process of assimilation but as equal opportunity, accompanied by cultural diversity, in an atmosphere of mutual tolerance". Albeit with some of the provisos I outlined in my previous post. There does need to be a framework established where certain values or rights are non-negotiable (acknowledging the rule of law for eg).

Edit - have just read you last post - yes, certain values are sacrosanct and those that settle in this country should be encouraged to sign up to them. The equality of women, rule of law, democracy etc would, imo, be among these.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

KalamityKel Wrote:

What we need is a great big melting-pot turning out coffee-coloured people by the score.

Excuse me?

ABSOLUTELY MARVELLOUS!!!!

I have written thousands upon thousands of words on this Sybject and you pick out that line and you have missed the point entirely KK! ( Yes1 I know you are going to say you were being "sarcastic" ).

I deliberately paraphrased a Song and even mentioned the Musicians: Blue Mink ( Melting Pot).. or in your haste to make that comment did you not note that?

[Brendan]

Why can?t people just accept their differences and not get all wound up about them?

The problem seems to be people in general. They?re all a bunch of cunts no matter what colour they are.

What I do find particularly stupid about British Nationalism though is that its supporters seem to bang on so much about how Britain used to be ?Great?* normally inferring directly to the Empire of the past which is the very reason Britain is a multicultural country, or the World Wars which were the two most tragic events in human history and certainly nothing for anyone to be proud of unless you are one of the unfortunate buggers who had to fight in them and manged to survive.

A lot of it stems from the insular mindset of the British who for some inexplicable reason don?t realise that they are just another part of the greater English speaking world and not some sort of grandiose separate entity. That ignoble honour goes to the USA.

* Little acknowledgement is given to the fact that the ?Great? in Great Britain is a geographical reference and nothing more, i.e. the largest of the British Islands.

[Sherwick]

D.C., not just encouraged I feel - those that settle in this country should DEFINITELY sign up to our liberal and democratic values. If they don't like them, then please go elsewhere - it's a big world.

Of course, the interesting problem with this is that some indigenous white English people don't sign up to our liberal and democratic values and we have freedom of speech here, so they don't have to!

[david_carnell]

Sherwick - it's phrases like "our values" that worry me if I'm honest. Whose values? Yours? Mine? Tony's? Gordon Brown's? Nick Griffin's?

Take something like equality for women and homosexuals. Whilst you might struggle to find someone on this site who disagrees with those sentiments, there are undoubtedly people out there that do. The Christian Right for example. Now those people are as British as you or I yet have very different "values". How can you then reconcile somehow forcing (and I'm not sure how you'd achieve or measure this anyway) immigrants to sign up to some abstract set of values?

In fact I'd challenge people to come up with a list of irrefutable values that are the basic tenets of "British-ness".

1) Rule of law

2) Democratic government

3) ????

Almost everything else I've thought of can be challenged and argued over.

[Sherwick]

DC, I did point out this problem in my updated post!

[david_carnell]

I know. Apologies, but I only saw that after I'd published.

[Sherwick]

I see that anyone wanting British Citizenship needs to read a book called 'Life in the United Kingdom: A Journey to Citizenship' and then pass a test based on this book. I have no idea what's in the book though..? Maybe, how many ways is it possible to get out in cricket?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Sherwick Wrote:

Maybe, how many ways is it possible to get out in cricket?

Your rhetorical question has gotme stumped.

Whats the answer?

[James]

Sadly we are living in a warped Orwellian world where people are losing touch with reality. I'm not talking about Labour's ID cards or CCTV cameras. I'm referring to the stranglehold that vitriolic right-wing newspapers and their peddlers of lies and hate (like Richard Littlejohn and Kelvin MacKenzie) have over sections of the British working classes. It is THEIR (the owners of these papers) FAULT that people are voting BNP - the red tops are making increasing numbers of people feel they have no other alternative. It's all pretty depressing, really.

[antijen]

I have just came back from Scotland where I have saw for many years now a growing bitterness especially towards the eastern european, before joining the EU, when it was more field work done (berry picking etc), many local people felt there culture was taken away from them, regardless of the fact this work was reclining due to Thatchers goverment sending dole officers on to the fields, as most of this work was done on the side, Still there was many people who were brought up relying on this work. Now the factory work where the conditions were bad for local people, never getting a permanent contract, therefore working 6-8mths yearly, happy when minimum wage came in because wages were so bad, is no longer available to them and some factories replacing most of there British workers. I believe the goverment has encouraged racial tension and racism on diffrent levels. When the asylum dispersion programme was brought in, 2002, (I do not know what the policy is now) I remember one year of riots in Glasgow, people were furious at what seemed to be support for immigrants who had been moved on poor estates where people were struggling and felt they'd been forgotten. I remember being in Somerset quite a bit around that time and noticing how it lacked any diversity in culture, I was told, that little towns or villages had come together and because of a small population had managed to fight against being part of the dispersion area. I can understand people feeling it is unfair but my Polish frinds came from Edingburgh where they are living to visit me while I was there and it gave a chance for great debate, and at times an understanding that the people who seem most affected, jobwise, are the poorer people, I saw no signs of racism but a willingness to relate.

[Marmora Man]

  Quote

Maybe, how many ways is it possible to get out in cricket?

Now we're getting onto sensible subjects:

10 ways to get out - but there're 50 ways to leave your lover!

Caught

Bowled

Leg before wicket

Run out

Stumped

Hit wicket

Handled the ball

Hit the ball twice

Obstructing the field

Timed out

[Sherwick]

Marmora Man Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Maybe, how many ways is it possible to get out in

> cricket?

>

> Now we're getting onto sensible subjects:

>

> 10 ways to get out - but there're 50 ways to leave

> your lover!

>

> Caught

> Bowled

> Leg before wicket

> Run out

> Stumped

> Hit wicket

> Handled the ball

> Hit the ball twice

> Obstructing the field

> Timed out

Come on. Everyone knows that Cricket is more important than Love.

[????]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This is a bitter pill to swallow, but I think I

> know, partially, what Tony is getting at and to

> some extent I have sympathy with his position or

> the position of those he refers to. Let me

> explain.

>

> There is, I believe, very large segments of people

> within our society who sense that they are

> threatened by massive immigration and by the

> growing minorities within their borders that hail

> from different cultures, follow different

> practices, and have separate institutions and

> loyalties.

>

> But street violence, verbal outbursts of hate, and

> growing support for various extremist parties are

> unwholesome reactions. People feel threatened that

> their sense of identity, self-determination, and

> culture, which come on top of concerns evoked by

> globalization, new communications technologies,

> and a gradual loss of national sovereignty are

> being eroded. To throw the feelings of many

> millions of people in their faces, calling them

> ?discriminatory,? ?exclusionary,? ?hypocritical,?

> and worse, is an easy politics, but is not truly

> committed to resolving the problem. People?s

> anxieties and concerns should not be dismissed out

> of hand, nor can they be effectively treated by

> labelling them racist or xenophobic. Furthermore,

> telling people that they ?need? immigrants because

> of economic reasons or demographic shortfalls

> makes a valid and useful argument, but does not

> address their profoundest misgivings.

>

> The challenge is to find ways to constructively

> address these concerns. At the same time, we

> should ensure that these sentiments do not find

> antisocial, hateful, let alone violent

> expressions.

>

> Two approaches are to be avoided: promoting

> assimilation and unbounded multiculturalism.

> Assimilation ? which entails requiring minorities

> to abandon all of their distinct institutions,

> cultures, values, habits, and connections to other

> societies in order to fully mesh into the

> prevailing culture (see France to an extent) ? is

> sociologically difficult to achieve. It is morally

> unjustified because of our respect for some

> normative differences, such as to which gods we

> pray.

>

> Unbounded multiculturalism ? which entails giving

> up the concept of shared values, loyalties, and

> identity in order to privilege ethnic and

> religious differences, presuming that nations can

> be replaced by a large number of diverse

> minorities ? is also unwelcome. It is likely to

> evoke undemocratic backlashes, ranging from

> support for extremist, rightwing

> parties and populist leaders (see the furore

> surrounding the BNP) to anti-minority policies. It

> is unjustified because it fails to recognize the

> values and institutions held dear by the society

> at large, such as those that protect women?s and

> gay rights.

>

> The basic approach I favour is Diversity Within

> Unity (from which I have plagiarised this post).

> It presumes that all members of a given society

> will fully respect and adhere to those basic

> values and institutions that are considered part

> of the basic shared framework of the society. At

> the same time, every group in society is free to

> maintain its distinct subculture ? those policies,

> habits, and institutions that do not conflict with

> the shared core ? and a strong measure of loyalty

> to its country of origin, as long as this does not

> trump loyalty to the society in which it lives if

> these loyalties come into conflict. Respect for

> the whole and respect for all is at the essence of

> the position.

>

> The problem comes in trying to define what those

> shared values and frameworks are.....

Excellent post DC, couldn't agee more

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Walworth's East Street Market 'dying'

Thursday, 04 June 2009

Stallholder Ador Miah talks to Simon Hughes MP at East Street Market, Walworth

By Jenny Clover

TRADERS at a once-thriving market claim it is ?dying on its feet? and are even taking bets on when it will close.

Stallholders at East Street in Walworth, claim their market, which has been going since 1880, is unloved and underfunded.

A report commissioned by the Southwark Association of Street Traders found that in just one year the number of stallholders across the borough has shrunk from 480 to 275.

Just seen this while looking at The South London Press.

This is exactly the type of thing I was referring to..

[Marmora Man]

TLS - why should a street market be funded by the council? Surely if it's providing a service (ie "is loved") it will thrive.

[Atila Reincarnate]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Walworth's East Street Market 'dying'

> Thursday, 04 June 2009

>

> Stallholder Ador Miah talks to Simon Hughes MP at

> East Street Market, Walworth

>

> By Jenny Clover

>

> TRADERS at a once-thriving market claim it is

> ?dying on its feet? and are even taking bets on

> when it will close.

>

> Stallholders at East Street in Walworth, claim

> their market, which has been going since 1880, is

> unloved and underfunded.

>

> A report commissioned by the Southwark Association

> of Street Traders found that in just one year the

> number of stallholders across the borough has

> shrunk from 480 to 275.

>

> Just seen this while looking at The South London

> Press.

>

> This is exactly the type of thing I was referring

> to..

I lived in East street for approximately 12 years between the early 60's to the middle 70's and occasionally went back to visit my late grandmother until her death 1n 2005. The market is not as it used to be as the mix of races, cultures, since that time has changed markedly so the demand for the products that the stalls used to sell is not in demand as much as they used to be. It is a shame nonetheless, as I have many happy memories of shopping in the "Lane" as a child with my mum and later as a teenager when I used to buy some of my records from A1 stores in the Walworth Road and May Smiths toy shop at the top of East Street, and my Levis, Sta Press, Ben Shermans, Brutus shirts, tonic trousers from Fox's outfitters, where the actor somtime club bouncer "Nosher" Powell used to serve. Happy days indeed.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Atila Reincarnate Wrote:

I lived in East street for approximately 12 years between the early 60's to the middle 70's and grandmother until her death 1n 2005. The market is not as it used to be as the mix of races, cultures, since that time has changed markedly so

the demand for the products that the stalls used to sell is not in demand as much as they used to be. It is a shame nonetheless, as I have many happy memories of shopping in the "Lane" as a child with my mum and later as a teenager when I

used to buy some of my records from A1 stores in the Walworth Road and May Smiths toy shop at the top of East Street, and my Levis, Sta Press, Ben Shermans, Brutus shirts, tonic trousers from Fox's outfitters, where the actor somtime club bouncer

"Nosher" Powell used to serve. Happy days indeed.

>:D<

EXACTLY what I was saying and surprise, surprise it comes from someone who IN PRACTICE NOT THEORY actually lived there during the halcyon days of a very vibrant market that was universally loved in South-Eaat London, then.

As the Guys from that era and area moved out, so did many of The market-stall holders customers. So the stalls had less and less customer-base and nearly all went to the wall.

Spoke to the Guy who had the "Number 1" Pitch in the Market on the junction of Walworth Road, which had been in his Family for 100 years ( he aaid). He would love to still be there, but he said there is little demand for traditionally English "Fruit 'n Veg" in that area now , which is, exactly, what I was saying the other day.

Its nothing to do with who has the nicest colour skin--we are all originally from Africa and all equal in the eyes of The Lord and should be equal qith each other.

It IS all about the loss of traditional English Culture, in this case exemplfied by a Street Market that has existed for 100 years only 3/4 miles from the heart of Central London.

p.s Atila, I hate to be one to tell you but next door to The English Sausages sold at Kennedys which shut recently, after 70 years, is The A.1.Stores (that had been open for 80 years) and that has just shut down now, as well, due to lack of demand.

The traditionally British, I'll amend that to "English" feel of that area is dying fast.

Even The Manor Place Baths where we played 5-a-side Football, swam in the Pool, played Table Tennis and watched Wrestling and Boxing is now a Tibetan Temple....lovely...

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Marmora Man Wrote:

TLS - why should a street market be funded by the council? Surely if it's providing a service (ie "is loved") it will thrive.

Not all "services" are profit-making though MM.

Its one of the few features left in that area, though, MM and I feel should be supported, accordingly.

[????]

East Street, mid 80s - I had a 'flirtation' with the girl who worked on her dad's sweet stsll (about 5 stalls down on the left)who i met in the old Sun & Doves...she was yummy her dad was scary and 'had his eye on me', nothing csme of it, that's all

[josiebee]

I haven't followed many of the messages here but I really like what you say. I think if we do want to mix with people of different cultural backgrounds a really good starting point is acknowledging that people do get drawn towards people similar to themselves.