Children stopped from pavement chalking

[Reg Smeeton]

Yesterday evening a few children (in the age range 6 to 12) were happily playing on the pavements along Colwell Road. They had some pavement chalks and after producing a long, illustrated hopscotch grid they started a competition for who could produce the best pavement picture. Their artwork was really creative (flowers, mosaics etc).

A few minutes later one of them knocked on the door to report that two community officers had come along and told them to remove these pictures as they are "graffiti". The disconsolate kids borrowed buckets and brooms and scrubbed away all of their artwork.

It doesn't take much water to remove children's pavement chalk (indeed last night's rain would have been enough). But those children won't be engaging in that game again.

Dear community officers, if you happen to be reading this, then I hope you realise just how misguided your enforcement was in this pathetic little incident. Perhaps you thought you've just nipped in the bud some potential future criminals, but instead you've killed off some spontaneous creative street play, the like of which hasn't been seen on East Dulwich streets since the 1950s (or so some threads tell us).

Does anyone know what the law is regarding pavement chalk/hopscotch etc?

UPDATE AT 2.30pm

Rang the Community Wardens about this, they checked up and rang back. The situation seems to be that the law is vague - pavement chalking might be regarded as graffiti because it is writing on public land, even though it's temporary. But it's almost inconceivable that a child would even be cautioned for such a thing unless what they chalked was offensive. The wardens concerned won't challenge these children again (if they do, I'll be on the case immediately).

Now, where can I buy some chalk...?

[plimsoul]

goodness that's ridiculous, i'm always getting the chalk out in the summer with the kids as it cleans off.

i think the saddest point is that it's great to hear that children are playing out on the street and instead of being encouraged they are told off for chalk pictures.

i know that these guys do a great job and in general i like having them around so i'm not having a go at them just the on the spot decision that was taken-that is all.

[Zaardvark]

Considering how long the council seem willing to allow footpaths to be littered with borken glass (min 4/5 days in my experience) and so on, this seems ridiculous.

Z

[jaybee82]

Maybe they'd rather the kids made a proper job of it with a couple of aerosol paint cans.

[lenk]

Zaardvark Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Considering how long the council seem willing to

> allow footpaths to be littered with borken glass

> (min 4/5 days in my experience) and so on, this

> seems ridiculous.

>

> Z

I guess the community officers are concerned with minor public order offences.

Broken glass is a street cleaning issue and hence a different department.

I imagine they are told to err on the side of caution (ie I can almost imagine a thread on here titled 'Unsightly children's chalk drawings on my road simply must stop NOW')

[Brendan]

I'm pretty sure there is one titled, 'Unsightly children on my road simply must stop NOW'

[Marmora Man]

Rev,

Don't pass the buck - ring, write or email Southwark and make your comment / complaint. I agree entirely with the thrust of your argument - but not the lack of action.

[Chick]

All PCSO?s do is hassle children, homeless people and beggars. I have seen them telling a nine year child to cycle on the road or face a twenty pound fine. They didn?t know that children under 16 are allowed to cycle on the pavement. When I challenged them they said ?they often cycle up to people and steal their mobile phones and we have to nip it in the bud?. I pointed out that if they suspected this child of being a phone thief they should do something about it. They replied they didn?t, so it was a stupid argument. Two of them in Manchester last year watched someone drown because of ?health and safety?. They are a waste of space and money.

[Reg Smeeton]

Fair point MM, wasn't meaning to pass the buck here, and have phoned Southwark this morning, who passed me on to the Dulwich community wardens (telephone 7525 0036). They are going to get back to me on this.

By the way, I'm not sure what I've done to deserve to be addressed as "Rev".

Yours

Reg.

Marmora Man Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Rev,

>

> Don't pass the buck - ring, write or email

> Southwark and make your comment / complaint. I

> agree entirely with the thrust of your argument -

> but not the lack of action.

[lenk]

Chick Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> All PCSO?s do is hassle children, homeless people

> and beggars. I have seen them telling a nine year

> child to cycle on the road or face a twenty pound

> fine. They didn?t know that children under 16 are

> allowed to cycle on the pavement. When I

> challenged them they said ?they often cycle up to

> people and steal their mobile phones and we have

> to nip it in the bud?. I pointed out that if they

> suspected this child of being a phone thief they

> should do something about it. They replied they

> didn?t, so it was a stupid argument. Two of them

> in Manchester last year watched someone drown

> because of ?health and safety?. They are a waste

> of space and money.

If they try the ?20 fine for cycling on the pavement thing, just cycle off.

Actually, if they approach you regarding anything just cycle off.

What are they going to do, chase you on their scooter?

[tropica]

Chick Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> All PCSO?s do is hassle children, homeless people

> and beggars. I have seen them telling a nine year

> child to cycle on the road or face a twenty pound

> fine. They didn?t know that children under 16 are

> allowed to cycle on the pavement. When I

> challenged them they said ?they often cycle up to

> people and steal their mobile phones and we have

> to nip it in the bud?. I pointed out that if they

> suspected this child of being a phone thief they

> should do something about it. They replied they

> didn?t, so it was a stupid argument. Two of them

> in Manchester last year watched someone drown

> because of ?health and safety?. They are a waste

> of space and money.

As a matter of fact a child under 16 years cannot be issued with a fixed penalty notice, (any infringement of the law has to go through the full process), however, there is NO legal exemption for children under 16 from the law that prevents cycling on the pavement (Section 72 of the Highways Act 1835 as amended by Section 85 (1) of the Local Government Act 1888). Police are not expected to prosecute very young children and can use their discretion for others so, unless a child was getting in the way of pedestrians, or acting in some provocotive manner, it is highly unlikely that they would be prosecuted. For confirmation see Dft and other government websites

[Catalyst]

Ignore them. They've got zero meaningful powers and just go after easy targets.

Keep chalking up the pavement until the police get involved (highly unlikely).

[Domitianus]

Am I right in thinking they have no powers of arrest? If so, what do they do if they attempt to spot fine someone or ask for your details and you simply tell them to b****r off? Not that I would, being so well brought up, of course!

[PeckhamRose]

Why don't you come to the Ward Panel meeting on Thursday 11th at 7pm at Harris Girls Academy, meet the police, PCSOs, Community Wardens, and ask them everything you're concerned about, yourselves?

Then you'll be aware of the facts. THEN you can stop talking crap and if you DO see a CW or PCSO or even heaven help us a police officer doing something wrong, you all know what's what and can report to their supervisors accordingly.

Sorry - bad day. But at least I am giving information!

[Domitianus]

Went to one of those once and the traffic wardens clamped me outside for parking on a very poorly painted yellow line!

[PeckhamRose]

So don't park there again, and then come along and be a productive/constructive member!

[Ms T]

>:D Why don't you come to the Ward Panel meeting on

> Thursday 11th at 7pm at Harris Girls Academy, meet

> the police, PCSOs, Community Wardens, and ask them

> everything you're concerned about, yourselves?

> Then you'll be aware of the facts. THEN you can

> stop talking crap and if you DO see a CW or PCSO

> or even heaven help us a police officer doing

> something wrong, you all know what's what and can

> report to their supervisors accordingly.

> Sorry - bad day. But at least I am giving

> information!

>:D<

[njc97]

Chick - PCSOs have led to a drop in crime in London and under 16s are NOT allowed to cycle on pavements.

Of course if PCSOs could also give fines for apostrophe abuse then they'd be even better.

[PeckhamRose]

At Ward Panel we were told the police CW and PSCOs use discretion on the cycling on pavements issue.

See what I mean?

[Domitianus]

Domitianus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Went to one of those once and the traffic wardens

> clamped me outside for parking on a very poorly

> painted yellow line!

This didn't really happen. "I can't back that up with paperwork" he says, in his best Dr Evil voice.

[gerritsmith]

Ah yes, the community officers.

Have you ever seen one patrolling the streets at night?

I suppose, crime and antisocial behaviour don't occur at night.

[Marmora Man]

Reg Smeeton Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> By the way, I'm not sure what I've done to deserve

> to be addressed as "Rev".

>

> Yours

>

> Reg.

Reg, put it down to iPhone fingers (v is just below g on the keyboard).

MM

[lenk]

gerritsmith Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Ah yes, the community officers.

>

> Have you ever seen one patrolling the streets at

> night?

>

> I suppose, crime and antisocial behaviour don't

> occur at night.

I think you miss the point of them.

In the same way that 'bobbies on the beat' do nothing to quell crime, they just make frightened voters feel like something is being done - so do community officers serve to provide a visible reassurance to people who spend their every waking hour afraid of being a victim of crime.

So there's little point in them being out at night when no-one will see them.

[Nero]

Peckham Rose,

I appreciate your efforts to get people 'on board' (Sir Alan speak) come from the heart, but they're clouded by a clipboard-crazy attitude, desperate to make everyone 'get it' just because you think it's right.

It is inconceivable that a PCSO (be they were in their usual troika, which any right minded individual would consider a waste of resources) should berate a child for chalking, especially when they know that the British summer has its own anti-temporary graffiti measure in the shape of frequent showers.

I have yet to see a PCSO or Community Warden get their hands dirty near the station in Peckham where people drop litter willy-nilly and shop owners blare out music and use the gutters to deposit their (animal and vegetable) rubbish, and where white van men and lorry drivers park harum-scarum on pavements and over yellow lines to the annoyance and delay of bus passengers and the safety of pedestrians.

Again, a reasonable person would feel let down if a warden goes after an easy target while much more serious law infringements are taking place.

I am up north on Thursday 7th, but please can you pass on my thoughts?

[PeckhamRose]

Off you go you patronising bu**er. I do not have any attitude - just that I care and wish people would stop using this forum to whinge on about things that we can't do anything about when they could try and aim to the right people when that opportunity exists. It may help, that's all.

Of COURSE it is wrong that the PCSOs did this. Of course I agree it is wrong!

So email these two,

[email protected]

[email protected]

tell them you are aware that the Ward Panel meetings are this Thursday and you can not make it.

Tell them you would like to be involved as a caring and concerned member of the community.

And ask them what they thought about it.

I am not sure if the road concerned is in the area concerned so you could ask these two and they can tell you if it is, and if not which area it is in.

I have also emailed all the members on the panel and asked them themselves to check in this forum. Maybe they'll read your post and answer it though I doubt any are proactive in the community as SMB Jones is to us with the railway.

Who knows if they will or have time to? But I will suggest it.

OK I'm off.