Peckham man guilty of murdering French students

[Keef]

Given that, I put "normal/law-abidin'" people who would enjoy pulling the switch themselves in the same category (albeit down a few levels) as the very people they would put to death.

Agreed 100%

Have to say though, not really fair to bring up Atila's previous banning, as he was wound up completely by someone behaving like a complete prick, and knowing they'd get a rise!

[Tony.London Suburbs]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

(against my better judgement)...a tad patronising but we will move, rapidly, on...:))

Tony - the arguments I made were against the death penalty AND against "normal" people adopting a similar mindset to the very people they despise.

I'm not so far away from you age-wise that you can give it the "wait until you are my age and see what I have seen" crap either. If I believe the notion that 15 years ago you were a some variant of a happy socialist (and I don't believe that for

a second) then that still doesn't mean I am going to turn into the Clint Eastwood character you aspire to on here I gave 2 examples of the types of society that have less of a problem with violent behaviour.

Obviously I favour the former over the latter.

Tony: Its not "crap" at all.

Many, many people have one view when they are Students which beginss to change as they enter the "dog-eat-dog" World that many are forced to live in. The more they experience the way life actually is and some of its more undesirable elements then the more people, tend, to get "angry" at what they see and hear and want something done about it. To fast-forward this, after "x" Decades of this many peoples views harden and they hardly recognise themselves from their previous "idealistic" selves.

You are wrong in any event. Having been Born and lived in The Socialist Republic of Southwark, where Labour were so comfortable they created their National HQ there, I voted Labour in my Youth. Then I became more Liberal, as one does and I voted accordingly and as you know The Liberals, thanks to the admirable and decent Simon Hughes, have done well there now.

My Clint Eastwood views have hardened over the last 25 years though as I'm sick and tired of all the pi++takers and their apologists, I'm afraid.

As people I much prefer idealists and good, kind, compassionate, caring, lovely people. I enjoy the company of Left-Wingers more in some respects ( so much for your ASSumptions):))

I would rather have a drink with them and have someone like you as a neighbour ( imagine that over the garden fence Seany Baby)B) but these same people are a bloody irritant and damned nuisance when it comes to wanting to genuinely "punish" bad people. I want them out of the way so good people can bring up their children in a lovely World so in that way I'm MORE of an idealist than you, probably.

Sadly. I've met too many Guys who are soulless and take advantage of peoples good nature and it disgusts me that eventually they become a cancer ( if you meet enough of them ) that destroy one's belief in the good nature of most people, on here and elsewhere.

Sean: Very few people are born bad.

Agreed. Hardly any I would say.

Can't think of one of my friends over all those years who hasn't got a Son or Daughter that they are not proud of as they are good people and loving Prents and the kids turn out the same, accordingly, "most" of the time.

Sean: so thanks to Blair....... me one who is not that bothered.

I know, I know Sean, it was Blair who was not bovverred:)

[Keef]

Who wrote what in that last post Tony?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Atila Reincarnate Wrote:

nor am I Clint Eastwood, nor do I aspire to be him.

I should hope NOT M8!:))

According to our M8 Sean we already have one Ex-Walworthian on here, already...namely me..

Sean: "that still doesn't mean I am going to turn into the Clint Eastwood character you aspire to on here "

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Who wrote what in that last post Tony?

It would help if I made it clearer Keef!:))

Edited, accordingly M8.

[david_carnell]

Tony - I would be careful of branding other posters (ie Sean) as patronising if you want to avoid allegations of hypocrisy.

Your argument of "you'll change your mind when you get to my age" is both wrong and frankly insulting to a large number of posters on this forum, myself included. Wisdom comes with knowledge not age. If you cannot provide anything other than this anecdotal nonsense as a coherent argument for a more hardline law&order platform then this argument will go nowhere.

Show me facts, examples and evidence - not some hyperbole about "other" websites or how marvellous Britain was in 1968.

You've been directly challenged to look at societies with low violent crime rates (Scandanavia and Saudi) and draw conclusions. Instead you obfuscate with pointless rhetoric about dogs with three legs and criminals laughing in the faces of "liberal do-gooders". Either engage properly like the "wise old man" you attempt to portray yourself as or don't, but don't try and pour petrol on the fire needlessly.

I'll engage with you all you want. I'm not afraid to be a liberal nor see it as a dirty word. I'm proud to see the best in people, to give the benefit of the doubt and to believe rehabilitation not punishment is more likely to succeed.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

david_carnell Wrote:

Tony - I would be careful of branding other posters (ie Sean) as patronising if you want to avoid allegations of hypocrisy.

Your argument of "you'll change your mind when you get to my age" is both wrong and frankly insulting to a large number of posters on this forum, myself included. Wisdom comes with knowledge not age.

Do you not realise David that additional "Wisdom" comes with additional "experience" which is achieved with additional "age".

Given that people have a certain intelligence then they will, indeed, get wiser as they acquire more experience of life, it all its various hues and that will come, increasingly, as they age.

Are you telling me that in 10 years time you will not be wiser and more learned than you are today and that with every additional year you will not increase your wisdom?

How does one acquire "Wisdom"?? Surely be learning through experincesd, through reading, through every form of Education and the older one gets they, surely, add layers to their previous level of Education and become wiser accordingly.

How can you say that you, as a "20-something" have the Wisdom of an average "50=something" (IGNORE me) I'm talking generally.

Unless you believe that you are intellectually superior than most ....

[daizie]

This country's damaged beyond repair. Pathetic politically correct governments and councils have seen to that. Even the so-called 'caring' professions eg social work, police are more concerned about the interests of the perpetrators of crimes than the victims. Britain will never again be the great country it once was; self-serving politicians and hand-wringing apologists have seen to that. As for the two who commited this particular crime we can look forward to them having a comfortable life inside at our expense.

In the cases of families like this, such repetition of mindless attacks on society, is proof that prison is not reform, merely an aided extension of their careers at our expense for which we suffer for. With no proposed remedy insight, would we not benefit from their permanent 'removal'

For those who say capital punishment does not work, well it works when people like this are eliminated. No amount of hand-wringing or social work can rehabilitate a person like this. The politician who wants to be elected should promote capital punishment.

[david_carnell]

Ooooh a sly dig at a months old post which you misunderstood in the first place Tony - good work - but pointless in relation to this.

Yet again you've ignored the larger issues to focus your laser beam argument on something irrelevent. Whether I'll be wiser in 50 years than I am now is besides the point, although the answer is probably yes.

Whether you being older than other posters makes your argument more or less valid is the crux though. And of course the answer is that it does not. You are right or wrong based on the weight of your argument not because you've been alive longer than someone else.

So if you'd care to get back to the matter in hand...

[Tony.London Suburbs]

david_carnell Wrote:

I'm proud to see the best in people, to give the benefit of the doubt and to believe rehabilitation not punishment is more likely to succeed.

This is where you give me a great problem David.

I LIKE the fact that someone sees the best in people and gives the benefit of the doubt, I genuinely do.

However I have met many villians who were "Patrons" at my workplace i.e. The local Dog-Track and they theived to bet, lost their money and went and stole some more to bet again. I KNOW their views about people who act and believe what you do and you only encourage them at OUR expense. The expense of every decent person, on here, and elsewhere.

THAT is my problem. YOU are fueling the fire and "they" only wish everyone had your viewpoint.

Maybe you have not been "tainted" and influenced by not meeting enough thieves, scammers and robbers.

Seriously, how many DO you know and if the answer is "not many" or even 2none at all" do you not realise that by NOT knowing any that will DEcrease your "Wisdom"???

[SteveT]

When hanging was outlawed here I believe the press said that 70% of the population was still in favour of capital punishment.

How was the death sentence removed from the statute when the vast majority of the British public remained in favour of it?

My feelings are to offer the convicted Dano's the choice of 'life with hard labour' so they earn their keep, or some form of cessation of inhalation and expiration by any means, injection, hanging, hungry lions, etc.

[david_carnell]

Oh for the love of god Tony - is there any chance of having an argument with you that isn't based on anecdote?

"I've met some real villans in my time thus I am an auhority on crime"

That's the best you can come up with?

OK I'll play - my brother and sister-in-law both used to work as prison wardens and became convinced that hardline regimes in prisons did nothing but brutalize inmates, make them resent the society that sent them there, neglected the opportunity to rehabilitate offenders and thus were more likely to reoffend upon release.

But that's just anecdote. I'm sure you could challenge it with "well my mate Steve worked in a prison. And he thinks different". Do you see what I mean?

I don't commit a crime, not because of the sentence I'd be given, but because I know it's wrong. If someone is incapable of making that judgement then I don't think tougher and tougher jail terms will make much difference.

[bigbadwolf]

Tony, I respect your views but can we please mug off all this 'down the dog track' rhubarb. It's only Catford dogs not some kind of Balkans Arms Bazaar.

[RosieH]

Sorry, I've been staying away from this thread because it can only ever go round and round in ever decreasing circles, but seriously Tony, no, come on: since when did personal anecdotes equate to wisdom?

I have known a number of criminals. Also criminal lawyers, forensic psychiatrists, policemen, and one social worker.

I'm older than D_C and younger than you.

And I'm anti capital punishment. Vehemently so. I can't work out where I should be on the spectrum.

[Jeremy]

David, I do agree with the general nature of what you're saying, but in this particular example, do you really think rehabilitation is relevant? Can these guys ever be law-abiding members of society? Can there ever be a case for letting someone like this out of prison?

I wouldn't like to think they could ever live next door to me - even after psychological help, passing GCSEs, learning a trade, or getting off drugs.

[SeanMacGabhann]

To be slightly fair to Tony, he did say I was a "tad" patronising when in fact I was going for the full-on, no-doubt-remaining, off-the-scale-on-the-patronisometer

I have LONG since ceased to care what a number of people think, for the simple fact, as already stated, they have a position and create an argument to fit that positition rather than any sense of judging the facts as they are, identifying a solution and working towards it

Speaking of ill-judged opinions: Daizie - care to point out when exactly this country was "great"? Was it when it had an empire? a slave trade? a lack of voting for women? when the Irish were confined to slums in the Minories? Or are those inconvenient facts? Which country is great in comparison now?

[bigbadwolf]

Jeremy Wrote:

> passing GCSEs,

Sorry Jeremy I know you're trying to be serious but that was funny, sorry.

[david_carnell]

Jeremy, in this particular example, I think it unlikely that these people would ever be deemed safe for release. This thread had drifted off into a wider debate on crime and punishment so I felt the need to state a more generalised conviction.

[woofmarkthedog]

Blimey I'm out of breath reading this lot.

As YOU were ( did you like the YOU.....ohh its like a knuckle sandwich....dofff)

*OO*

*takes to his day bed*

[Tony.London Suburbs]

bigbadwolf Wrote:

Tony, I respect your views but can we please mug off all this 'down the dog track' rhubarb. It's only Catford dogs not some kind of Balkans Arms Bazaar.

As the old Sunday Pictorial used to say "All Human Life Was There"...Arms Bazaar? The day the Boys tried to burn down The Stewards Box when the Photo-Finish went the wrong way would have made any Balkans Bazaar look a veritable Tea=Party!B)

[Tony.London Suburbs]

RosieH Wrote:

I have known a number of criminals. Also criminal lawyers, forensic psychiatrists, policemen, and one social worker.

I'm older than D_C and younger than you.

You don't look a day over 24 Rosie so don't try to fool me.:))

[Atila Reincarnate]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> I wouldn't like to think they could ever live next

> door to me - even after psychological help,

> passing GCSEs, learning a trade, or getting off

> drugs.

Next door?? I wouldn't want to occupy the same planet as these people.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

To paraphase what david_carnell Wrote:

Oh for the love of god David, I'll rejoin this.

I don't commit a crime, not because of the sentence I'd be given, but because I know it's wrong. If someone is incapable of making that judgement then I don't think tougher and tougher jail terms will make much difference.

TLS: So why do Football thugs and hooligans not offend to any extent or serious degree compared with their halcyon days of The 1970'/1980's David?

p.s. After you have replied I will give you my opinion based on the 1,500 Professional matches that I have attended and based my "Wisdom2 on.

[Keef]

Daizie - care to point out when exactly this country was "great"? Was it when it had an empire? a slave trade? a lack of voting for women? when the Irish were confined to slums in the Minories? Or are those inconvenient facts? Which country is great in comparison now?

Well maaaaaaybe that one ;-)

Daizie, you seem concerned about the money we spend to keep these people in prison, so serious question for you. It's hypothetical, and impossible, but stick with me.

Imagine every child could be tested, and we would know for certain that one would grow up and do terrible things like this murder, but they could be treated at a young age, and this could be avoided, but it would be at the tax payers expence.

Would you rather spend that money, or just kill them when they were young, before they could do any damage?

[david_carnell]

As a millwall fan I'm sure you've witnessed football violence, hooliganism and racism at first hand. It is a credit to the game that people like yourself refused to bow to fringe elements and committed to remove them from the terraces.

Incidents like Hillsborough and Heysel led to a public outcry over fan behaviour at football grounds. Coupled with increased police presence at trouble games and increased arrests, over time the rate of crime dropped.

I would also summise that a difficulty in recruiting new members, an ageing membership of crews and a new professionalism that occured with the advent of the Premier League were all factors in declining violence.

Whilst this is an interesting example and whilst I believe the success was in part due to more aggressive policing I'm not convinced it can be extrapolated to society as a whole.