Peckham man guilty of murdering French students

[david_carnell]

Where did I say my opinion was more worthy? I even asked what yours was... but still you prefer schoolboy tactics of insulting your detractor.

...and that's my point. I disagree with lots of people on here (TLS, ????, MamoraMan) but at least their arguments are jsut that - arguments. Not pointles outbursts of swearing and anger.

I haven't insulted anyone with terms like "bellend" either - only you've steeped that low - or worse given your previous form.

Either grow up, contribute something mature that adds to the debate or piss off.

[Ted Max]

To read your views anybody would think you have a monoply on reasoned argument.

I like this bit.

[blah]

can we move this to the " Welcome to the Silver Buckle SE5 - do you want some ? " room please

I'm afraid this here bourgeois lounge dont have no fighting licence innit

[Atila Reincarnate]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Where did I say my opinion was more worthy? I even

> asked what yours was... but still you prefer

> schoolboy tactics of insulting your detractor.

>

> ...and that's my point. I disagree with lots of

> people on here (TLS, ????, MamoraMan) but at least

> their arguments are jsut that - arguments. Not

> pointles outbursts of swearing and anger.

>

> I haven't insulted anyone with terms like

> "bellend" either - only you've steeped that low -

> or worse given your previous form.

>

> Either grow up, contribute something mature that

> adds to the debate or piss off.

Listen you are the one who started with the personal attacks, "spittle fleck rants", how fcuking dare you. Did I make any personal attack on you or your opinions, no I think not. But you have the gall to make apersonal attack and then wonder why I take exception to your remarks, think before you post or take your own advice and piss off.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Atila - come on - you are on the same high horse that got you in trouble the first time - and no amount of people suggesting you calm down worked then either. If anyone calls your post the other day (see below) a spittle flecked rant they're well within their rights because that's what it was. Not only was it that but it pretty much tells anyone who disagrees to "do one"

So the question you ask "how dare you", I'm pointing it back at you..

Atila's reasonable post in full

"I see the word revenge being tossed around as if revenge against such barbric and heinous crimes should never be considered. Well I tell you what if I was unforunate enough to be in the shoes of the parents of the students butchered by those evil bastards, I'd want them to suffer EXACTLY the same fate inflicted upon their victims. Yes it's revenge yes it's tit for tat yes it's an eye for an eye and I've no problem with that at all. I'm F**king sick and tired of all the naval gazing that goes on today, we hear so often about the pontification of the liberal bleeding hearts who bang on about the rights of the criminal and F**K the victim, ENOUGH, ENOUGH, ENOUGH. I ain't no F**KING christian, nor do I believe in any other doctrine, but I certainly ain't prepared to turn the other F**KING cheek. Now to all of you who are anti capital punishemnt accept there are more & more people who want it brought back and the numbers are growing. IF THIS MAKES UNCOMRTABLE READING TOO F**KING BAD. Kill the c**ts and have done with them, pieces of garbage that they are. I make no apology for my views.

"

[Jeremy]

Yes, it is evident that Atila clearly respects other people's opinions, and is interested in reasoned debate.

[Atila Reincarnate]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Atila - come on - you are on the same high horse

> that got you in trouble the first time - and no

> amount of people suggesting you calm down worked

> then either. If anyone calls your post the other

> day (see below) a spittle flecked rant they're

> well within their rights because that's what it

> was. Not only was it that but it pretty much tells

> anyone who disagrees to "do one"

>

> So the question you ask "how dare you", I'm

> pointing it back at you..

>

> Atila's reasonable post in full

>

What is this some kind of vendetta? It's not spittle flecked, it's my view, for which I still make no apology. Nobody else has done so on this thread so why should I? I am offended by your comment on my demeanour and by the other guys comments. Forget the past, this is now, I didn't insult him or you, nor did I say or imply as you seem to suggest that anyone disagreeing with my views should "do one", in fact I would go as far as to say the reverse is true. It would seem that those who do not agree with my view have taken that stance rather than the other way around.

[Atila Reincarnate]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> Yes, it is evident that Atila clearly respects

> other people's opinions, and is interested in

> reasoned debate.

Yes in the same way that you respect mine. God it must be great to be so morally & intellectualy superior to everybody else.

[Atila Reincarnate]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

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> We are all not far from singing from the same hymn

> sheet.

>

> Some believe that rehabilitation and compassion

> for people with broken lives are the way forward

> and others, like myself, believe that certain

> crimes should be punishable by amputation of the

> right hand, administered, naturally, under

> anesthetic. Indeed, If the thief repents and makes

> restitution before the case is brought before a

> judge, the punishment can be reduced. Aggravated

> theft can be punished by cross-amputation of a

> hand and a foot. Flogging would be suitable and

> acceptable in some cases for certain crimes, as

> well.

>

> Obviously, for more serious crimes some of us feel

> that more severe punishment is necessary.

>

> So a bit of fine tuning and I believe we will all

> be of common accord.:)-D

So this in david carnells eyes is not spittle flecked but the reasoning of a totally raional being, yet Tony reflects my views somewhat but I'm pilloried. Good to see we are all being consistent here.

[*Bob*]

If Tony had written this (see below) - then you'd be right.

Surely you can see the difference?

> Some F**CKING believe that rehabilitation and compassion

> for people with broken lives are the way F**CKING forward

> and others, like myself, believe that certain

> crimes should be punishable by amputation of the

> F**CKING right hand, administered, naturally, under

> F**CKING anesthetic. Indeed, If the thief repents and makes

> restitution before the case is brought before a

> F**CKING judge, the punishment can be reduced. Aggravated

> theft can be punished by cross-amputation of a

> hand and a F**CKING foot. C**NTS.

[SeanMacGabhann]

You are correct Atila - when you said

in no way does that suggest I should do one. It is in fact the very model of reason, respect for other's opinion and clearly anyone who thinks otherwise has a vendetta. Silly me. And even though it's "TOO FUCKING BAD" for me, it appears that people are getting on your case. Funny old world...

[Atila Reincarnate]

Bob I've said what I wanted to say, I think nothing I else I say will change anyones view and I'm not going to change mine.

[*Bob*]

On the football hooligan issue, which is interesting..

I can believe ???? / Tony's points about deterrent in this case, but surely the point is that with Mr Hooligan, you're talking about people who had plenty going for them (Jobs / Careers / Wives / Family / Children / Car / house) but for some reason enjoyed the 'thrill' of administering a kicking on a Saturday - for a bit of fun.

In other words, people with much to lose if the thrill came at any real price.

But the people you're talking about today - who you suggest would similarly give-up if there was a sufficient deterrent - often have none of the above. They have nothing to lose, so they don't really care.

[bigbadwolf]

Whats your evidence for this change *Bob*? I've worked with plenty of surveyors, engineers etc who still take part in football motivated violence and have all of what you listed to loose. They just don't shout about it.

[Atila Reincarnate]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You are correct Atila - when you said

>

>

>

> in no way does that suggest I should do one. It is

> in fact the very model of reason, respect for

> other's opinion and clearly anyone who thinks

> otherwise has a vendetta. Silly me. And even

> though it's "TOO @#$%& BAD" for me, it appears

> that people are getting on your case. Funny old

> world...

For god's sake, and this has to be my last word on this because it's beome far too tedious for words, I'm simply saying if you don't agree too bad, that's not the same as telling you to do one. I'm off to the pub for a drink. ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGH

[david_carnell]

???? used the example of stronger sentencing for knife crime - a popular media issue, especially in London.

In recent years, continuous and repeated crack-downs and amnesties have been launched against knives and those who carry them. But interestingly

According to the British Crime Survey, knife-enabled crime (any crime involving a knife) over the past decade has remained stable at around 6-7% of all crime, comprising 30% of all homicides.

In fact, the most recent crime survey by the Metropolitan police showed that knife crime has actually dropped by 15.7% over the past two years, from 12,122 to 10,220 incidents.

Now, the first sentence would suggestone of the following: that these measures are having little success in lowering knife crime; that knife crime isn't as rife as the media would lead us to believe; or that these measures are keeping a lid on things and stopping the situation deteriorating.

But the second sentence suggests that knife crime is actually falling in recent years, which imo suggests a few possibilities: that still further stronger punishment is unnecessary as current methods are working; that media publicised and public backed campaigns are a more potent weapon; or lastly that if crackdowns were even harsher then the drop in crime would be more dramatic.

Or none of the above as police statistics that feed into the BCS are unreliable.

[*Bob*]

bigbadwolf Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Whats your evidence for this change *Bob*? I've

> worked with plenty of surveyors, engineers etc who

> still take part in football motivated violence and

> have all of what you listed to loose. They just

> don't shout about it.

Yeah, I'm sure. There will always be a hardcore element but it's not on the scale of what it used to be.

ie All but the most hardcore have been deterred.

[*Bob*]

Let's say (for the sake of argument) there are 100000 people carrying knives around - for one reason or another.

In scenario A, all 100000 are stopped carrying a knife and go down for a five year stretch. As a result of our current parole system, 50000 of them go on to be serial offenders with little in life to lose, and 1000 of them go on to commit further serious crimes throughout their life.

In scenario A, during the course of a five year period, 100 serious crimes are committed by those 100000 carriers. The others get lucky (ie don't get caught, nothing happens, don't get into a situation where they use them). They grow up a bit. They get an education. They get a job. They get a life. They don't carry a knife any more.

Obviously I'm making the figures up. But essentially you have to balance up the understandable desire to come down hard and make and example of people with the knowledge that it'll come back to bite you later in life ten-fold. At least before these people go to prison there is theoretically a chance improving their lot before it's too late. Once they're in, that's never going to happen for a huge percentage of them.

[bigbadwolf]

I think we're all pretty aware of that *Bob*. Lets look at your angle.

They start routinely carrying a knife for whatever reason i.e protection, intimidation etc. For arguement's sake and to reflect reality they know it's wrong. They go to prison, hinder further chances in life.........tough, they were warned. O.k I accept that due to overcrowding and inappropriately allocated resources on behalf of the parole system then errors, some serious, are goin to be made and others will fall through the cracks. I'm judging from your scenario that this is their first offence. I grew up around gangs and I was always told at school and at home that it was illegal to carry an offensive weapon and that I would be in serious trouble if I was caught.

[*Bob*]

Did you carry one anyway?

[bigbadwolf]

No. The only incident/trouble I've been involved with a weapon in was blowing a neighbours window out with an air rifle. The police were called but I lied through my back teeth and avoided judicial consequences but my dad saw through me and I got a thick ear. That's it, my school (Forest hill boys) made a lot of effort to let us know the consequences of our actions regarding the law through personal advice and police liaison.

[*Bob*]

bigbadwolf Wrote:

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They go to prison, hinder further

> chances in life.........tough, they were warned.

This is true, but (ultimately) the decision to bang 'em up will be tough for you, as well as for them.

[bigbadwolf]

Saying that it will be 'tough for me' in regards to sending them to prison you're raising the possibility that I could be a victim of their heightened knowledge of crime and bitterness to a society that locked them up?

[david_carnell]

Without wishing to put words in *Bob*'s mouth, a penal system that does nothing but lock up crims isn't going to foster a progressive society. In fact, in the long-term it is counter-productive.

To use a rubbish metaphor, think of crime as an infection on the limb of the human body. The "lock 'em up and throw away the key" technique is akin to amputation. It solves the problem but at great expense and long term detriment to the body as a whole (or society in this case). It's my belief that greater emphasis on tackling the causes of crime and more resources given to rehabilitation, which I would like to key-hole surgery or antibiotics, whilst expensive and needing greater expertise in their execution are, in the long-term, much more effective.

[bigbadwolf]

I agree with what you're saying David and also believe that punishment should be proportional to the crime. I do however think that a very, very clear line should be drawn in the sand in relation to very serious offence's such as pre-meditated murder, commercial drug/people trafficking etc...and in relation to to these crimes and the people who commit them who all to often have been warned repeatedly through soft options or a custodial sentence there should be a cut off i.e you've been warned you go to prison for the rest of you life and are kept inside for 23 hour a day.

I don't want this to be confused with the American 3 strike system whereby you get caught stealing sweets three times and get 25 years.