ED Harris boys - use of the Rye

[Otta]

I may be being ignorant here, but it's a park, it's common land. Who is going to stop them if they just go and use it anyway? I am gobsmacked that people would want to stop a park from being used by young people.

[david_carnell]

Well I'd think that if every local school were using it for all of their games lessons it would quickly deteriorate in quality, become a quagmire and be ruined for other uses.

So it is sensible that there are certain areas available for schools to use at certain times and with restrictions.

I'm not saying that Harris shouldn't have use of it but nor should common land be a free for all.

[Otta]

I wasn't suggesting it was, I was asking who would go and make them move if they were to just use it. I don't want the park to become a rugby / football pitch.

[intexasatthe moment]

" Intexas... As I understand it schools are free to book these pitches, apart from Harris who where "barred"."

"The school is free to book sports pitches on Peckham Rye Common and Peckham Rye Park Extension. "

how do we find out which of these statements is correct ?

[James Barber]

I thought it was a planning condition or in the Section 106 agreement.

But checked and couldn't find it so have asked an officer who I think will know why/if the restriction is in place.

Harris are clear they're restricted.

[Renata Hamvas]

I've put a members enquiry in about this, I've asked several questions to clarify the situation and the historical reasons for it.

James, if it was the outcome of a planning application, it couldn't have been voted down by the PR Ward Councillors as only one of them was actually a planning committee member at the time that the meeting would have been held, 2008 or 09 as the building works were going on in 2010 (you say above you were on the committee so that means it went to full committee). This was before my time (my fellow PR councillors and I were first elected in 2010) and during the previous Liberal Democrat/ Conservative administration.

Renata

[first mate]

I think one concern has always been that given the proximity of two Harris Academies to PR Park that creeping use of the park might mean it does become a school playground extension and that could have an effect on the character if the park as well as other park users. For instance for how much of each day and by what percentage of land would the park be used for school children? Clearly all children can use the park out of school time. It may be an unpopular view but I do see that longterm there could be problems with this. There may also eventually be problems if Harris start to pay for upkeep of the Rye.

I think if other schools are using the Rye then Harris should be allowed to do the same to the same degree but not more.

[first mate]

Just wanted to add to the above that politicians/ councils showed an incredible lack of foresight in selling off school playing fields. We need to be really careful that local parks do not become the solution to that mistake thereby losing another amenity valued and used by all the community. If parks end up being playing fields they will change, there will doubtless have to be restrictions on other users for health and safety reasons etc..

I can understand parental concerns and see that the suggested usage would be politically expedient for councillors under pressure from powerful parent lobbies, but why was Harris allowed to build a school without adequate play space? There was always a suspicion that sooner or later there would be parental pressure to use the park and the proximity of Harris to the park suggests this may have been a long game, especially when quid pro quos to do with park funding and upkeep are mentioned by councillors. Lack of play space was an issue raised at the time and pretty much ignored by the pro Harris lobby.

Just think it could be thin end of the wedge.

Fully expect to be shot down in flames, called a nimby, anti child, narrow minded, anti change etc..

[cactus]

When I looked around the school last Autumn, Harris ED were very positive about having to bus children to another site, although I'm aware that they have to put a positive spin on the issue. They claimed that there were proper changing facilities on the off site playing fields - suggesting that they don't have such facilities in the school?

What I couldn't understand, is that they had dropped swimming from the sports curriculum, despite there being a pool 15 mins walk away. They explained that it took too long to walk there and back, and the boys didn't get sufficient time in the water. It must take longer to load up a coach full of boys and drive them to off site facilities. As James Barber pointed out, there seems to be a lack of awareness around climate change and the need to adopt greener practices ...

[LondonMix]

Firstmate-- I think the point is that the school does have access to playing fields but that they are further away. The question is why should they be bused further away rather than using the park.

The open questions are-- why aren't they allowed to use the park (since other schools further away can do so) and does the original rationale seem fair / valid.

If it was simply a politically motivated attempt the undermine the school application (as some seem to be suggesting) then it should be over-turned. If the park is at full capacity with the schools that already use it, then that would be fair enough assuming there is some objective way of validating that claim.

first mate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Just wanted to add to the above that politicians/

> councils showed an incredible lack of foresight in

> selling off school playing fields. We need to be

> really careful that local parks do not become the

> solution to that mistake thereby losing another

> amenity valued and used by all the community. If

> parks end up being playing fields they will

> change, there will doubtless have to be

> restrictions on other users for health and safety

> reasons etc..

>

> I can understand parental concerns and see that

> the suggested usage would be politically expedient

> for councillors under pressure from powerful

> parent lobbies, but why was Harris allowed to

> build a school without adequate play space? There

> was always a suspicion that sooner or later there

> would be parental pressure to use the park and the

> proximity of Harris to the park suggests this may

> have been a long game, especially when quid pro

> quos to do with park funding and upkeep are

> mentioned by councillors. Lack of play space was

> an issue raised at the time and pretty much

> ignored by the pro Harris lobby.

>

> Just think it could be thin end of the wedge.

>

> Fully expect to be shot down in flames, called a

> nimby, anti child, narrow minded, anti change

> etc..

[first mate]

LM, I don't know to what extent other schools use the park and whether that useage is also an alternative to playing fields or in addition to. My point is simple, if the park starts to be used as a school playing field it will change the park long term. I assume that those in favour of Harris would have known all along that the playing fields were off site, that was what was agreed. Why was the school allowed to go ahead on that basis...unless it was always considered that at some point a claim could be made to the Rye. The difference is that both Harris' are adjacent to the Rye, in prime position, so to speak.

[intexasatthe moment]

Has it been confirmed that Harris are banned from booking pitches ? I thought there was opposing views from posters on this ?

[dresswaves]

And can a distinction be made between the Rye and the park. I'm sure using the pitches on the Rye would be no problem if they are free but if the school was constantly using the park for sports that would be a differernt matter. I have noticed that the teachers gather for a smoke under the first trees in the partk directly opposite the school!

[James Barber]

I've checked the Planning Permission for the school and double checked with officers.

Their is no planning restriction. The school from the planning application hearing hasn't wanted to antagonise the Friends of Peckham Rye who opposed them using Peckham Rye Common and Park for hiring pitches. Hopefully the friends will change their mind at some point.

Irony not lost on me that most people consider Harris Federation to lack sensitivity and they could push this and book pitches.

They're generally happy with their use of Kings College Playing Fields. So the boys get PE there when not using their own large sports hall.

[intexasatthe moment]

Oh James you're scraping the barrel if you're citing this as evidence of Harris's sensitivity !

When my 90 odd year old mother had continuing problems with boys climbing into her backgarden to retrieve the footballs that had wrecked her plants, the superhead at the Peckham Academy wouldn't even walk across the playground to see the situation for herself .She was " too busy to leave the premises " . We were to call on her in her office .

A previous visit by myself to the school on the same issue ( I was actually concerned for the safety of the boys climbing over such a high fence ) were dealt with by the previous head interviewing me in a corridor . I particularly remember wishing we could sit down as conversation was made difficult by the 18" difference in our height .

Letters to the Federation asking for their help and explaining the lack of success of approaches to the school were just passed back to the school .

Nor was there any attempt to pre warn my mother or her neighbours ( whose properties are a few feet from the school playground ) when it was decided that this would be opened up to a Saturday market complete with generators, music ,vehicles .

Harris Federation sensitive - don't make me laugh !

[EDmummy]

Intexasatthe moment I'm sorry to hear of the terrible experience both you and your mother experienced but this is about the ED site and not Peckham. Each school has a head who is reasonably independent of the Federation (hence the name). I so wish the ED school would book the Rye but I think they should be applauded for their sensitivity to local opinion. My son enjoys his life at Harris ED and that's what matters to me (and his brother who will join him next year). I'm no fan of Mr Harris but give the school and its pupils a chance.

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Oh James you're scraping the barrel if you're

> citing this as evidence of Harris's sensitivity !

>

>

> When my 90 odd year old mother had continuing

> problems with boys climbing into her backgarden to

> retrieve the footballs that had wrecked her

> plants, the superhead at the Peckham Academy

> wouldn't even walk across the playground to see

> the situation for herself .She was " too busy to

> leave the premises " . We were to call on her in

> her office .

>

> A previous visit by myself to the school on the

> same issue ( I was actually concerned for the

> safety of the boys climbing over such a high fence

> ) were dealt with by the previous head

> interviewing me in a corridor . I particularly

> remember wishing we could sit down as conversation

> was made difficult by the 18" difference in our

> height .

>

> Letters to the Federation asking for their help

> and explaining the lack of success of approaches

> to the school were just passed back to the school

> .

>

> Nor was there any attempt to pre warn my mother or

> her neighbours ( whose properties are a few feet

> from the school playground ) when it was decided

> that this would be opened up to a Saturday market

> complete with generators, music ,vehicles .

>

> Harris Federation sensitive - don't make me laugh

> !

[intexasatthe moment]

EDMummy - yes I realise this is about Harris boys and use of the Rye .

Was responding to JB's point about the sensitivity of the Harris Federation . The same Harris Federation that ignored me when I contacted them about the problems I was having with one of their schools .Sorry for the detail ,but I was amazed by the lack of concern and level of arrogance .

Perhaps the Federation is more sensitive in their dealings with East Dulwich residents than they are with those who live in Peckham .

[intexasatthe moment]

Or then again perhaps The Federation is equally insensitive to ED residents .

I still can't get over their response to the proposal by Charter to open a second school in East Dulwich .

'we will challenge any decisions to proceed with all the means available to us'

[James Barber]

Hi ITATM!

I can assure you most school have tried blocking other new rival schools.

If you still have a problem with the Peckham Academy I'd be happy to try and help resolve it. Usual email or mobile number.

[intexasatthe moment]

Two wrongs and all that ..... and Harris Fed remains insensitive .

Thanks for offer of help - my mum's no longer there so not a problem for me or her .

[first mate]

In response to the original points. If Harris were to book pitches would this impact on other schools that use them? How many schools can book and use PRP before it becomes a kind of permanent playing field? Would the use only be in school time or at other times? What percentage of park time should be given over for school activities? The logistics involved with existing schools being at distance from the park seems to act as a brake and limiter on use. Would it be the same if the park was right by the school?

The difference between Harris and other schools is that Harris has two large schools right by the park, so once use for school recreation and sports is allowed for these two schools immediately adjacent, I can quite imagine things would slide. If Harris then 'invest' in the park one could even see some of that land possibly being privatised down the line.

Let's not forget that we will have two more schools opening in the next few years, these might also want to use the Rye for sports etc.. ( new Harris on Ld shop Lane; new Charter).

I also wonder if the distance travelled by Harris Boys to the Kings Playing Fields is any further than other schools have to travel to PRP?

Parks are precious community assets and should be open to all the public at all times. The Friends of Peckham Rye should not be painted as obstructive and anti-child, they seek only to preserve the park as an amenity for all.

I suspect there is a lack of trust around Harris motives and a sense that a long game is being played, hence the objections.

[Tigres Pride]

to First Mate - I applaud you stating that "Parks are precious community assets and should be open to all the public at all times. The Friends of Peckham Rye should not be painted as obstructive and anti-child, they seek only to preserve the park as an amenity for all."

why then should pupils attending any Harris school immediately adjacent to the park be the only ones prevented from the use of it? As far as I am aware, all schools, whatever their background, generally make some use of nearby public parks. Certainly when Waverley Girls School stood on the Boys Academy site, the Girls were often taken over to the park for Art and Gym classes, weather permitting. I know this as my daughter attended the school.

[first mate]

TG, TBH I think the reason, as I have stated, is that people do not trust Harris. Once occasional use is allowed can we be sure that usage will not creep? The distance of other users from the park curbs much more frequent use.

I seem to recall the early drawings of Harris were presented in such a way that PRP opposite looked like an extension of the school. That is why some think Harris have a long game.

Parks are not school playing fields. Once large sections are given over to this, day in day out, the character of the park will completely change.

I agree, it does seem unfair in one way but terms of use were negotiated and agreed before Harris opened.

[henryb]

I don't see how objecting to a local school and hence local school children from using the playing fields in the park is "perserving the park as an amenity for all".

It is not as if the sports fields are over utilized during the week.

Is it still the official position of the "Friends of Peckham Rye Park" that they object to local schools using the park for sports?

[first mate]

Henryb,

I have no idea what FPRP current stance is.

Local children are free to use the park as individuals, the objection is annexing part of the park as a regular school playing field. We also have to consider if Harris start to book pitches as regular users this then forces another school to stop using them. Perhaps other schools have a prior claim?

Again, this was all looked at and agreed before Harris opened, with full knowledge of Harris and parents.