Green and Blue

[blinder999]

just for the record, I went into Green & Blue and ED Deli for for the first time today, and in both places found the customer service to be unbelievably good - lovely friendly people.

Having read recent posts on the two, it made me think this forum must have had a seriously positive impact on at least two local businesses.

[Huguenot]

Bad luck on Godwin's Law Bob, I think Admin's had their eye off the ball today. ;-)

I do think that a couple of the G&B comments lately smack of persecution. You would think (as Bob highlights) that some of the conclusions drawn were a bit extreme compared with the 'crime' of being extrovert and motivating your staff. Maybe there was a lapse of judgment, but is that really 'crass appalling contempt'?

Neither do I think it's reasonable to describe the owner's willingness to respond to complaints as 'an efficient PR machine'. Is this how we're going to treat a friendly and engaging local trader?

If we over-react to comparatively minor infringements it wouldn't surprise me if traders develop compassion fatigue and retreat from dialogue. Then we'd achieve nothing. We have the freedom to criticise, but the responsiblity to do that appropriately and proportionately.

BN, I see your point on the forum not encouraging harsh words, but I don't think it's utopian. I think in the heat of the moment some of us (myself included) may have confused criticism with innuendo, insult or abuse. If we haven't managed to edit ourselves this can create a dilemma for the administrators. I've had more than one bollocking. :))

[Bellenden Belle]

I think we have to be careful that Godwin's Law does not become a way of a person being offensive and rude to another and effectively closing down any path for that person to defend themselves. Which is exactly how it was used here. You will note I actually did not respond further,obeying the so-called "Godwin's Law" but the debate appears to have continued and I now object to your wading in to describe my simple observation of my unpleasant xperience as being an example of over-reacting'.

Perhaps a list of traders and services we are not allowed to criticise could be posted for future newcomers?

[bawdy-nan]

yup! :))

(by which I meant, I'm feeling generally agreeable to the last couple of posts - brevity did not serve me well)

[Administrator]

Purposefully bringing in a Nazi element will not force Godwin's law.

People are reminded that this is a public forum and people are liable any legal actions that occur due to their posts. Saying "they wish to treat their customers with such contempt" implies that they have treated their customers with "the feeling or attitude of regarding someone or something as inferior, base, or worthless". As the original poster was annoyed by a loud staff meeting on a nearby table and not actually treated with contempt I would ask them to re-edit their post. This is a legal requirement.

Whilst both criticism and praise are encouraged please do be careful. Yes this forum would be really boring if everything posted was nice and rosy all the time but people's livelihood can be damaged by a "getting something off your chest" post and therefore legal action would be taken against the message poster and the forum. The East Dulwich Forum errs on the side of caution (and not on the side of the traders as we are frequently accused of) which is why we have to tread carefully in these situations.

[bawdy-nan]

Well, I know mentions of the "L" word don't go down very well here (you know who you are, though btw, I aced my exam and came top of my class, beating the whipper-snappers hands down - so stick that in your Meerschaum and smoke it H).

But it might be useful to forum users to familiarise themselves with the law surrounding defamation (and its defences, including fair comment, in which opnion is allwed based on true facts and to which insult is no bar, malice, in this case not meaning nastiness at all, rather, expressing opnion that you don't truly hold, or basing an opnion onfacts you know not to be true).

The BBC have obviously encountered this problem in their H2G2 and associated sites and have developed a useful laymans guide to the law in this area. Here it is.

Its a little out of date so here's a more detailed analysis of current law. Its a bit dense.

[*Bob*]

BB

My mention of Godwin's Law was a JOKE with reference to a previous thread about that so-called 'law' (Godwin's Law is a a joke, in itself, pretty much). It wasn't an attempt to wind-up a debate.

At least this is a thread with something being discussed now - instead of a back-door complaint to a trader, as it initially began its life.

[Bellenden Belle]

And what exactly is being discussed now?

Perhaps you could discuss how unfriendly and unwelcoming some members of this forum are towards newcomers?

But alas, I have better things to do with my time, so have clearly got the message - I hope you enjoy the "community" you have created here.

[bawdy-nan]

BB - come back!

[spadetownboy]

perhaps bb is being a little bit over sensitive in that her perception of what is loud differs to others,something which appears to be a bit of a thread on this site ie kids at the herne etc. please do accept that others have the right/ability to speak as well and if in future it does get consistently loud no doubt you have a tongue in your head use it and ask if they could pipe down,otherwise be prepared to shut up and put up.

[Keef]

Come on BB, we've all disagreed with each other at some stage on this forum. You shouldn't feel victimised or personally attacked. It would be an awful shame for you to stop posting!

[*Bob*]

What is being discussed here, is when and what it's appropriate to post on a public forum - a debate worth having.

If you post criticisms of others, then you should be able to face it yourself - not blame it all on at nasty *Bob* and then 'play the newcomer card' (despite describing yourself in an earlier email as a 'regular lurker on this forum' - hmmm.)

[shambles]

Well, having read through this thread I feel sorry for BB. A newbie comes and posts what they feel is a reasonable comment/observation and effectively gets blackballed. No need for such agression EDFrs. This new forumite has now been put off completly and I think that's appalling.

[Huguenot]

BN, buggers wouldn't give me a Meerschaum, but I did get a Zinger. :))

BTW that was one on the things I got a bollocking about. I feel chastened but wiser...

[bawdy-nan]

I believe what we're having is a meta-debate. Sometimes messy and not always un/fulfilling.

Bob, I'm sure you don't mean it, but you are coming across as a bit of a bully. Its probably a mis-match in posting style but its a shame if someone feels as though they daren't post even if they've been reading it for a while. A diversity of views and range of opinion and approach is best, isn't it?

(H - I too bear the red badge of admin hand-shaped smarting reprimand ... a little savlon and the kindly promise of crumpets from a bosomy-strict admin works wonders)

[*Bob*]

Folks: despite the fact that I'm not the one who's been asked to edit my postings 'lest they be defamatory', it looks like the sympathy card has been played, so it's game over.

In future I shall tippee-toe round anyone I disagree with instead of saying what I really think - just in case they suddenly turn out to be a newbie, late in the thread.

[mockney piers]

Aaggh, I'm a bit torn. I see *bob*'s point entirely, but I'm sorry Bellendenbelle feels she's been bitten after popping her toes in the water.

Don't be dispirited BB, rejoin the fold (said in a slightly disturbing invasion of the body snatchers stepford wifey way), and bob don't be dispirited, the forum wouldn't be the same if we stifle all debate.

[Keef]

Exactly right!

[Mark]

Blimey, it's all been going on here hasn't it?

Something that I really don't like is when people say they don't post on the forum because they think they'll get shot down by the frequent posters. My reply to that is if you post something that's likely to get 'shot down' they it probably will, if you ask "is there a WI group in East Dulwich" of "I hear a new shop's opening" then all's fine. If you post a message with your opinion that someone's arrogant and rude then you have to be prepared to back up your opinion, just like in the real world if you told someone they're arrogant and rude. Remember that because someone questions you does not make it a personal attack.

The Forum's meant to be a place where, contrary to what some may have said, anything to do with East Dulwich can be discussed. It would be boring if everything posted was lovely and great and nice and it's good to have an open debate, it's what a forum is, a public meeting place for open discussion.

I think this thread's close to being lounged, or is it? I bet the Admin's got a tough call here.

[dulwichmum]

Come back Bellenden Belle.

This whole thing has been quite painful to watch.

[Scruffy Mummy]

Another poster on another thread pointed out that local businesses are getting lots of free market research from this site - it's a great opportunity for local businesses to get feedback from customers and improve their business. Look, you'd have to paid a consultant alot of money to interview and collate comments from your customers and here you can get it all for free! I noticed that the service at EDD has really gotton loads better since the recent fracas about the egg situation and frankly, I didn't think it was that bad to begin with. So as a result, their profile has been raised, they probably got more customers popping in to see what it's all about and they've learnt something that has improved the business. It's the businesses that no-one can be bothered about mentioning or discussing that I worry about!

[batdog]

Bellenden Belle = (tu)

[Greenandbluegang]

Dear Forum

Once again (this is staring to feel wearingly familar), I am on this forum defending my business.

I am so sorry that Bellenden Belle felt that her lunch was ruined by a management conversation. If she had been listening carefully though (perhaps we should have been louder?), she might have heard that what was really being discussed was what special offer we could do for customers as it was a bank holiday weekend. We decided to sell champagne at shop price in the bar (terrible for our profit margins incidentally and absolutely no reason we have to do this on a Saturday night, our busiest night of the week). Yes, we did talk about doing a staff incentive, only so everyone would remember to mention it to all the tables who came in.

We start work here at 7:30am and have to rush to get ready to open at 9:00am. We finish at 1am on quiet nights and 2am on busy nights. There simply is not time to have meetings outside of opening hours and if I had thought that what we were discussing was for a single second in any way offensive, we would have had the meeting off-site.

We are starting to feel really quite despairing and while the last thing I want to do is antagonise anyone - our locals are our business after all, and we do everything in our power to keep them happy (hence the offer on Saturday night), I do feel at this stage that the time has come to say that if you don't feel you can talk to us on site about an issue you have, without plastering it all over the internet (do you realise that when someone decides to research Green and Blue on the web, all of these will be there for them to see?), then please stay away. That may seem harsh, but anyone who has worked 7 days a week building a business will understand how incredibly demoralising this all is, particularly when this complaint came from us trying to do a genuinely special offer.

We very much welcome feedback and are not stupid enough to think that we are so perfect that we don't deserve to hear some unpalatable (to us) truths at times but why on earth are we not being told when we you are here, giving us a chance to rectify it instead of doing it this way?

The tired and really rather fed up Green & Blue gang

[Greenandbluegang]

PS - thanks to Bob for sticking up for us, but for the record, he does not work here or have anything to do with the running of the business.

[Michael Palaeologus]

Sorry guys - but trying to stop people discussing something on the internet is p*ssing in the wind. You have had some great comments on this site, but this is the downside.

It was good that you were discussing discounted offers for your clients; but to be frank, if I was a customer I wouldnt want to hear you discussing it either. If you want a management or staff meeting - do what everybody else does and open a little later or get in a little earlier.