Touting

[lard]

Quite surprised to see touting of various tickets is allowed in the offered section. I think it was a little against the spirit of what these forums are about....

[SeanMacGabhann]

Not noticed before

I have no problem with people selling on tickets they can no longer attend - but selling on tickets at a profit is poor form at best and scummy at worst

[Mark]

I think you'll find that most people sell them at face value, there's only one person selling Hamlet tickets at a profit at the moment.

[lard]

There were the ?500 Chelsea tickets the other week too.

[ClareC]

I was surprised to see that too! Fair enough selling at face value but blatantly profiteering isn't on at all :(

[annaj]

Lard, did you report the Chelsea ticket post at the time?

There's a link at the bottom of all posts that allows you to report them to Admin if you think they're out of order for any reason.

[sophiesofa]

At least the hamlet person is being upfront about it and not trying to hide the profit part. Probably more appropriate for ebay though.

[Atila Reincarnate]

I'm surprised anyone can make a profit selling hamlet tickets.

[Bellenden Belle]

I was pretty surprised to see the Hamlet tickets - there was a mention of how much they were selling on Ebay and I couldn't help but feel that that is the place for that seller then.... after all, are they planning on donating 15% of the money received to the forum. Mmmmm? I think not.

Me? I am selling my Madame de Sade tickets (or not selling if truth be told) but only at face value. Which I hope and think is okay.

[Annasfield]

I saw the "touted" Chelsea tickets and told the seller my views. Not sure it went anywhere.

In hindsight, I should have reported it, but assumed that it would have already been seen bY the powers that be.

[ClareC]

Selling at face value is perefectly acceptable :-)

[Jeremy]

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?9,242967,244585#msg-244585

[Marmora Man]

lard Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There were the ?500 Chelsea tickets the other week

> too.

Don't think they sold tho'

[Marmora Man]

I have no problem with dealing in tickets.

I have bought and sold redundant tickets at face value - I have also sold on tickets that I could no longer use at a profit, it all depended on what the purchaser was prepared to pay.

What is the difference between selling a car, gold or a picture at a higher price than originally purchased for and selling a ticket to an event?

I object to touts buying up swathes of tickets - thus denying them to others who are prepared to queue and buy at the right time / price as well as creating a market for scarce tickets. That's monopolistic practice. BUT the world is a market place: So if I have something I can't use - and you want it, then we haggle and exchange money for goods - if it's profitable for me and you're happy with the price where's the damage?

[PeckhamRose]

All very well and good Marmora Man, so they should not sell them on here, but rather auction them on ebay.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I just love queuing on a phone system for 3 hours for a ticket only to be told they are sold out and then have some git try and sell them to me for a profit. It suggests I wasn't willing to put in th eeffort or didn't want it at the time

i have never sold tickets at a profit - it is different - and it's the right thing to do. I have done NOTHING for tickets I have bought and I deserve nothing for selling them. Can't people be nice to one another instead of capatalising ALL the time???

No?? You get no satisfaction from giving something to someone else and knowing it makes them happy and you haven't lost out?

[Marmora Man]

All very well and good Marmora Man, so they should not sell them on here, but rather auction them on ebay.

I would never dictate where people should, or should not, sell items. I'm just saying that there's nothing intrinsically wrong in selling "stuff" for a profit - whatever it is.

i have never sold tickets at a profit - it is different - and it's the right thing to do. I have done NOTHING for tickets I have bought and I deserve nothing for selling them. Can't people be nice to one another instead of capatalising ALL the time???

Of course people can be nice - but a ticket is just an item - buy gold today and sell it tomorrow at a profit - you've done nothing but hold it. Put money into an ISA and take the profit (perhaps) in 5 years time - you've done nothing but hold the money. Why are tickets so special?

I've sold Leonard Cohen tickets at face value and Ashes tickets at better than twice face value. In both cases I received what was a market value - unrelated to the price on the ticket. I offered something - someone else chose to buy it - all parties were satisfied. In both cases I sat next to the person / people I sold the tickets to. No-one complained about the pricing.

[indiepanda]

Marmora Man Wrote:

> Of course people can be nice - but a ticket is

> just an item - buy gold today and sell it tomorrow

> at a profit - you've done nothing but hold it. Put

> money into an ISA and take the profit (perhaps) in

> 5 years time - you've done nothing but hold the

> money. Why are tickets so special?

ISAs aren't in very limited supply - your buying one doesn't stop other people from taking one out. Tickets are in limited supply, people buying them and selling on for more than face value deprives people who wanted to go but could only afford to pay face value of the chance to go.

I am quite happy for people to sell on tickets they bought with every intention of using them who then have to sell them on because someone couldn't make it for what ever reason. But deliberately buying up tickets with the sole purpose of selling them on for a profit does irritate me. These days it seems loads of gigs you have to try to book on the day the tickets go on sale to have a chance of going - which is a right pain if you are at work when they go on sale as I usually am.

[Marmora Man]

indiepamda - I've already stated my opposition to wholesale buyers of tickets and agree entirely that they are a blight on the market. I have never done that - and wouldn't want to, tickets I have sold have been "redundant" thru' changed plans, absence of friends etc.

However, Sean seems to believe tickets are a very special case and should never be sold on at a profit - which is illogical.

There is an absolutist argument which would allow touting. It would go something like this:

Tickets are sold for a popular event.

Not everyone can take time out to queue / phone / apply online to obtain the tickets they want - there is a cost to them of taking the time off to do this which they are not prepared to "pay".

Touts are prepared to queue / phone / apply online.

Touts sell on the tickets with a premium added for the time they have spent queuing / phoning / applying on line.

It's a rational argument - except that if they corner the market the touts actually create the shortage of tickets that allows them to charge the hefty premium. This is not allowed in more general markets and shouldn't be allowed in any other market. However, a blanket ban on "one off" / "non tout" selling on of tickets by individuals would be illogical. It annoys me when Lords, Wimbledon and other top venues claim that they "own" the ticket and forbid it sale to anyone else.

[indiepanda]

Marmora Man Wrote:

> It's a rational argument - except that if they

> corner the market the touts actually create the

> shortage of tickets that allows them to charge the

> hefty premium. This is not allowed in more general

> markets and shouldn't be allowed in any other

> market.

So how would you suggest you police a system that allows a bit of touting but not enough to create a shortage to create a hefty premium?

[SeanMacGabhann]

There are a number of reasons why I consider it wrong

1) it's one of the few times in life where rather than being at the receiving end (taxes, private charges, yadda yadda) one can be at the supply end. Unless one behaves differently, there is no point giving out about anyone else. This is your chance in a way that isn't possible with (jesus wept!) ISAS.It's a ticket that at one time you REALLY wanted because the artist meant something. And if he/she/they didn't mean that much to you then don't buy the ticket in the first place - let people who really want it have it

2) If music is JUST a commodity then take my cds and albums and burn 'em. They mean a lot more to me than that. And when I got into music it wasn't yet the corporate whore it is now. I was given tickets, I was encouraged to listen to people just for what it was. Logic is not part of that world. I'm well aware that the musical icons that are sought after enough for a market to sprout up are corporate schills themselves these days - Dylan singing a life of counter-culture etc etc, but that's no reason to fall in line

3) A better comparison would be the person who buys the last round, after last orders. There is no other chance of anyone else buying drinks so the person who has bought them could go, "right lads, these cost be ?3.50 each, but as you have no choice I'm going to charge you a fiver each. No skin off my nose if you don't pay, I can't drink em all anyway I'll just chuck em"

4) People don't complain to you for overcharging for one of two reasons - a) they have plenty of cash and could care less or b) they want the tickets so much they don't want to risk losing them by saying anything that might offend the seller. It shouldn't be taken as read they are happy with the price

%) You make touts sound like some kind of social worker. They are organised and the reason it "costs" so much for some people to give up the time to buy a ticket is directly because of their activities. I have spent too many fruitless mornings queing up overnight or on the phone for hours to even begin to consider this ridiculous line of argument

There are some things that if you do, you are a knob. This is one of them.

[????]

Couldn't agree more Sean - if I've a spare ticket for anything it's going to someone who wants it for the right reasons as face value

[Marmora Man]

Sean, Sean, what with this thread, and others, today you seem to be more "shouty" than usual?

I re-iterate tickets, for anything, are just another commodity.

I was presenting the absolutist (or utilitarian) argument for information - not as a defence. Ticket touting is wrong because that is a function of cornering the market and creating a monopoly. However, to claim that music / concert tickets have some innate moral value that should prevent them from being traded is clearly nonsensical. The concert or event is a commercial event in the first place. So is the sale of paintings, of food in restaurants, a bus ride, a pair of boots - all commodities.

There are some things that if you do, you are a knob

When all you are left with is name calling it presumes your argument is poor.

[Marmora Man]

So how would you suggest you police a system that allows a bit of touting but not enough to create a shortage to create a hefty premium?

No idea - haven't put my mind to it. However, there was a suggestion of legislation to make ticket touting illegal, I wouldn't want such legislation to also catch the EDFer selling a one off spare ticket to a football match, cricket match or concert - whether for profit or at face value.

[lard]

As an aside, there is an argument that says why don't venues just put all their tickets on ebay. This would be more lucrative for them, and be a fair market.